Is More Better?
 

I don’t understand the obsession with more power/powder is better. I’m an accuracy fan. From comments here a lot of guns shoot more accurate at lighter loads. Seems for most US big game 80 grains is plenty of oomph. I particularly like a cushion when BP shooting, Only been 3 years of experience with no one to shoot with to learn from so I am much more comfortable at lighter loads. Fact is most or all that I have learned is from manuals and this site.

What’s your take on load size?

RE: Is More Better?
 

Find the one that's most accurate for the projectile you use for your particular gun for a particular game. I read of a guy who uses as little as 50 grains of FF in a 50 cal flint and is successful. I never go above 80 in my flint or 100 in my in-line.

RE: Is More Better?
 

What is wrong with both I say. If you can shoot well at 150 yards with a 2100fps 250gr load, then I say go for it.

I mean its pretty common sense to shoot what is accurate. Thats a given.

RE: Is More Better?
 

I agree that the max loads don't make a lot of sense unless you are doing something really different like trying to shoot 200 yards (which by the way takes a lot of practice to do well). I kill elk at 100 yards or less with a 300gr. bullet driven by 80-90gr. of Black Mag'3 which is about 95gr. of Black Powder level energy (maybe a little bit more). Don't know what in the US is harder to knock down than elk. Maybe big bears but I wouldn't try shooting something that shoots back with a single shot muzzleloader.

RE: Is More Better?
 

Shot placement is everything.
What is the most accurate within your effective range and with enough energy to effectively harvest the intended game is all that is required.

For deer, large or dangerous game;
I'll always opt for the heaviest, yet still accurate load for hunting within the loading limits of my given rifle. Recoil does not bother me one bit in a hunting situation. Why? I prefer to deliver as much down energy as possible and I'm only shooting once.

Whatever you feel comfortable shooting and within the limits of your weapon is "Better".

With inlines and optics, I prefer to load heavy enough to the threshold of accuracy pattern at 150-200 yards.

With sidelocks, 100-125 yards is the limit as I'm shooting open sights.

RE: Is More Better?
 

Powder charges depends on the rifle your shooting and the projectile you load. Powder charges are also influenced by the kind of powder you shoot. The shooting circumstances also dictate the powder charge. If you're going to be shooting a heavy projectile over extreme long distances, then powder charge is important just as if the projectile is very light. We have to be able to deliver a certain amount of projectile energy down range as well as the accuracy to place the shot.

I think powder charge size also depends on the animal I am going to be hunting. I am not going after the large bear with a small charge and light projectile.

I agree with many, 80 grains of powder is plenty of juice to get most jobs done. I seldom shoot over 100 grains. On the target range the load can vary from 50-150 grains. All depends on the mood I am in and the other circumstances mentioned above....

RE: Is More Better?
 

I got a question and observation.

I observe that its has been so troublesome to alot of ML hunters that the 150gr loads have hit the scene. Posts, (nothing wrong with them) have been so common place on at least 10 ML forums.

I wonder why? I never have questioned what is too mcuh or too little. If a guy is hunting deer with a 338win mag. I don't care. Doesn't bother me any. Why do some care so much?

RE: Is More Better?
 

Yea I notice the same thing as well.

But I look at it this way, new folks to BP & ML are coming into the sport every day. They have questions and there is a river of mixed signaling floating around at least from a marketing perspective. All of the inline mfg's are puffing about 150gr Magnum loads.
Then you have the powder manufacturers like Hodgdon saying "no more than 100gr regardless of your rifle" and more opinions in the forums like this one than there are stars in the sky.

Plus many folks mix the loading data theories for Inline rifles and Sidelocks. Which I disagree with. These are very close, but the shear nature of the sidelock design really can't tolerate charges up to 150gr. The modern inlines that allow for heaver charges are engineered to do so for additional power and range capabilities.

And, you are loading your own "cartridge in the barrel", which is much different than just grabbing a box of bullets. Talk to center-fire shooters that do their own loading and you will also see much of the same chatter and discussions with new folks coming into hand loading.

Makes me confused and I've been shooting BP for over 35 years. And I've added yet another opinion. :)

By the way, I read somewhere that you had a EE shingle and were into fiber?

MSEE here, with a major in photonics design.;)

RE: Is More Better?
 

Yep, been into classical optics for several years, and stickly fiber optic systems now for about a decade. We do some gov. work, but in the past mostly for the private sector.

I am in MD/DC area, so you can guess who my employer is.

We unfortuately have laid off most of our photonics group. Relying more on vendors data.

Do you do 40G work?

I am mostly into centerfire reloading. I would say 10% ML and 90% centerfire. I jump back and forth. I am in MD now, and it just pays to be good at ML's. All the state parks require ML only. So with a good ML, you can get buy with only one gun in this state.

We have rules however. And our pressure signs are much more obvious in the centerfire world unlike ML.

To be honest, I have only shot two deer with a 150gr load. It was alot more devastating than I imagined. More so than any PRB, or 1600fps XTP I have ever witnessed. Everything else was with 80-95gr loads. I plan to only use the 150gr loads in swamp areas where 100 yards shots are common.

In this state, you have to get them down quick. I hunt on 5 acres alot behind my house surounded by other farms, and if it gets off that 5 acres, you probably lost the deer. People are not very nice about it usually. so its entirely different than Ky where I grew up.

RE: Is More Better?
 

10G DWDM for the DOD is the extent for me. Now I've got my lobotomy and am into management.
[8D]

RE: Is More Better?
 

Uh oh a competator.

RE: Is More Better?
 

Phil,depends where you are hunting and how far the area will permit you to
shoot.I agree 80 or 90 is plenty........TOO EACH HIS OWN!!

RE: Is More Better?
 

I can't answer your question but I will say that those who choose to
push the envelope can & will forever. Some of the elite in taking
everything to the limit will say its the small DNA string that separates us from the animals we hunt. I think it all starts when we see a sign that says sale, no reaction, but if we see that sign
and it says huge magnum sales event, we react. Same with ML's
if they says its a "MAGNUM" then yea buddy got to try that magnum charge. And sadly a lot of the new ML's have that attitude
with no regard to recoil or accuracy. Sometimes we just have to take a step back, a deep breath, and ask is this really necessary?
just my take on your statement.....

RE: Is More Better?
 

This is a good topic...I've used .264's, .30-30's, .30-06's, .35Rems deer hunting since the 60's...I believe in having plenty of power to ensure energy at distance, but never felt I had to use any of the really big boys...the above calibers are all generally about the same size and will take most anything on the NA continent at typical distances...shot placement always being most important.

However, FWIW, I view powder charges for muzzleloaders differently...IMO they can't always simply be discussed on the basis of powder alone, almost as if all projectiles are the same...I believe projectiles & projectile weight play a more major role in the selection of charges in muzzleloaders than simply saying xx-xxgrns of powder is all that's needed, like an across the board statement.

I hunt pretty much exclusively with flintlocks and patched round balls now, and they are a lot lighter than the same caliber muzzleloader conical is, with it's much higher level of sustained energy at distance. So I feel the need to drive PRB's at or near published max loads for deer hunting, to ensure I have the energy at distance if I need it.

On the one hand for example, I shot a 5 pointer this fall while squirrel hunting...had a .45cal flintlock, 128grn ball, and only 40grns Goex FFFg laying across my lap...the buck walked in front of me only 20yds away and I shot him in the heart, dead deer. But on the other hand, I could not have taken that shot at 50-60yds...would have needed much more velocity...and 75-100yds would have required even much more velocity.

But if heavy conicals are used, velocity is less critical and even though a slow conical's trajectory could be like a rainbow, it would still do its job when it got there due to its weight and energy.

Shooting a lot of PRB's at the range to test results, penetration, distance, etc...different calibers with different weight balls...I'm not comfortable with a blanket statement that "xx" grns of powder is all I need...with PRB's I use max power levels for a given ball considering the game I'm hunting and the distances I'll be faced with.

If that's only 50yds then that's one charge, but if I can normally see 125yds, I don't ever want to be holding a moderate load behind a PRB and have a P&Y buck walk by at 125yds...my two cents

RE: Is More Better?
 

Absolutely it is not a question of need. I mean face it the deer are so outgunned with a PRB and 80gr of Goex its not funny. The question of need became silly after we picked up a firearm. After that, it became fun and experimentation.

RE: Is More Better?
 

I get a good chuckle out of this subject.

Went to the range with a buddy of mine a few weeks ago. I brought a flinter, he brought an Omega.

We talked about muzzleloaders for awhile, I asked him if he ever tried actual blackpowder before- his reply was that he had no interest because the cleanup was too involved, he shoots triple seven. I asked him how he cleaned that up, he replied that he ran hot water down the bore followed by a solvent scrub to get rid of the sabot fouling. :D

On shooting, all he cared about was velocity. He wanted to put them 3 big 50 gr pellets in every time to get that bullet out to the 100 yard stop as fast as it could. I urged him to try 2 pellets instead of one, but he insisted that it would have been a waste of 2 pellets because it wouldn't give him the maximum velocity he strived for. After about a dozen shots, he was all done because the recoil was giving him a massive case of the flinches. I was shooting my flinter with 80 gr of FFg offhand better than he was shooting from the bench, and I bet I spent less time cleaning when I got home than he did.:D

RE: Is More Better?
 

I congradulate the guy. He was experimenting Briman. And I love doing that. He may not be doing it your way or mine working up instead of down. But he got out to the range that day and got to shoot some. And it could have turned out differently. He could have had 2MOA groups right off the bat. It rarely happens. But now he knows and maybe learned if he wants to pump that sabot that hard, he might have to look into different sabots or combos.

And the whole flinch thing, thats a different issue he is going to have to work out separately. If a person flinches alot on a 150gr load, I tend to bet they flinch some on a 100gr. You are probably more of a authority on that than me.

RE: Is More Better?
 

To each his own, but understand that this doesn't appeal to everyone. I have absolutely no desire to own a magnum muzzleloader and shoot 150 yds, no matter how accurately I can do so. This is not the way I prefer to hunt, so it offers nothing to me. I prefer to meet deer in their environment and hone my hunting skills that will allow me to get witin a reasonable range and let me put a well placed roundball into the kill zone, using open sights. I get tremendous personal satisfaction from doing this but get none from taking a 150 yd shot with a rifle equipped with a scope.

IMO, the magnum muzzleloaders were developed from a marketing standpoint, nothing more. Someone, I believe it might have been Knight but I'n not sure, came out with the first magnum muzzleloading rifle so they could sell more of them. They promoted it as an improvement over any other rifle because it could handle 150 grns of powder and because it could, it had to be better. Of course, to stay in the market, everyone else had to follow suit.

RE: Is More Better?
 

Never said it did, did I? I asked why it bothers people so much not if it appealed to people? My girlfriend likes crafts or I call crap. It doesn't appeal to me, but it doesn't bother me so much I got to fill up every forum with 20 posts on it. I just am struggling to understand why it bothers people.

I suggest you take up a nice long bow. Seriously. If you like traditional aspect of muzzleloader, you will love the traditional aspect of long bow. If you like to get up close and personal, let me guarantee you my friend, its hard to hone any better. Any body can kill with a PRB, but not so easy, at least for me with a bow.

Heck I say try everything.

RE: Is More Better?
 

Well you did imply it, whether you intended to or not, when you said:

It doesn't bother me if someone wants to shoot 150 grns of powder in an inline. It does concern me that some newcomers buy an inline and think that they have to shoot 150 grns just because the rifle is capable of doing so. It concerns me if they continue to use 150 grns when their particular rifle might be more accurate with a lighter load that still offers plenty of energy for cleanly harvesting the game they are after. It concerns me that they might never try anything other than "magnum loads" because they can't get over a "more is better" mindset. It doesn't bother that some inline shooters want to be able to take 150 yd shots at big game but it does bother me if they think that is the only way they can be successful.

I certainly agree with you here. Unfortunately, I had to give up hunting with my longbow because of a shoulder injury. I don't agree that anyone can kill a deer with a PRB. I do agree that anyone can if they have the personal temperament and discipline to learn to do so but I don't believe everyone does and modern inlines, with "magnum loads", saboted bullets and high powered optics, have great appeal to those that don't .

RE: Is More Better?
 

sabinajiles,

I have read your post and while I agree wth a lot you have said i would like to add that I believe hunting deer in the east or south east is not the same in the west, espicially here in this part of Idaho. I guess your populations run higher than ours, we might be able to get to two tags per year on some occasions but that is not the norm. Further we do not have the wood lots or feeding plots that seem to be prevelant in the east. For me to hunt deer I have to spend a lot of time on Public Lands, basically Forest Service and Potlatch. I am hunting in and out of clearcuts, shooting across draws from one ridge to another. Yes, there are some 50 yard shots, but not always especially when hunting elk. I would like to go prepared to make that extended range shot if needed and have enough energy to humanely(sp) kill the animal I am after. During elk season and after the first few shots by people it is really tuff to get real close to our white tail or elk.

Because of these situations a lot of people believe they need those "magnum" charges, especially those newbies coming over to ML'ing from the bolt action centerfires. (that is exactly the reason that so many inlines are sold) Maybe I am wrong here, but I would prefer everyone out here hunted with a "magnum" ML instead of a "magnum" centerfire or any centerfire there would be a lot less game taken and hunting would return to somewhat of an art.

I have shot 150 grain loads (equivelant) on many different occasions, just experimenting never in a hunting situation, and I need to agree with bigcountry, I do not think there is a tremendous difference in recoil between the two loads. Remember that 3 t7 pellets is equal to 127.5 grains of Pryro crap or BP.

Us guys that just come over to ML are awlays thinking performance - performance - performance not to many of us understand the law of deminishing returns - "so" it must be necessary to get perfomance to load 150... And really you do get some added velocity, but at what price.... I shoot 100 grain loads and have not found the reason for the extra 50 but some folks do. You probably shoot 80 grains or less and wonder why I think I need 100 - you shoot rb - I shoot sabots, and it all comes down to matching our rifle with the conditions we hunt...

So this whole thing goes right back where you started "To each his own" - sorry for taking up time and space.



Matching you hunting weapon to the conditions you are hunting in is important

RE: Is More Better?
 

Well that stinks. I about did the same thing 5 year ago. I did my typical obsession where I was working to get a new bow tuned. And shot and shot for a few weeks, until my shoulder pulled. Doc said if I kept it up, I would have to move to a crossbow. Since then I try never shoot more than 50 arrows at a time.

Most people I have seen try mag loads that are newcomers gave up pretty quick. I took several months last year week after week trying dozens of combos. It burns the cold winter.

RE: Is More Better?
 

I admit that I don't know anything about hunting in the west or southwest. If I were faced with those conditions, perhaps I would concentrate on ambush points but with no experience with your conditions, I honestly can't say that would be effective. If conditions necessitated longer range shots, and I were interested in maintaining a more traditional method of shooting, I would probably opt for a BPCR, as long as it was legal. I really have no real bias against inlines. I just have no desire to use them. I own one that I never use anymore.

RE: Is More Better?
 

I suffered a severe rotator cuff tear that had to be repaired by sugery. It didn't occur from shooting my bow but from an accident. After surgery, my arm was in a sling for ten weeks and I wasn't allowed to do anything at all with it. After that it was a long rehab, probably taking close to a year to get it back to about 95% of what it was before, at least by strength. However, I can't draw and hold the weight of my longbow. I can draw a 60 lb compound bow and did hunt with one for a while, just to keep in the woods, but have pretty much given that up because I just don't enjoy it that much.

RE: Is More Better?
 

My poimnt was that:
150 gr triple 7 loads do recoil ALOT for a muzleloader, I shot his rifle, and though I'm not very sensitive to recoil, it felt a lot like a 12 guage shotload that I was shooting. Shooting a dozen of these off a bench will cause people to flinch unconsciously.
I could shoot my RB rifle all day without it even coming close to bothering me.

The cleanupup of triple 7 sounds like a marketing ploy to me. You still need hot water to clean it up, and need solvents and a brush to remove sabot fouling. I think new shooters are being sold on a falsehood that the new improved muzzleloading is easier to clean up. Ask anyone who has never shot real blackpowder as to why they won't try it, the typical response is that they don't want to do the blackpowder cleanup.:eek:

RE: Is More Better?
 

I don't agree at all about the recoil. Before I started experimenting I heard that over and over here. And then tried it, and it sure wasn't no 12ga slug in my opinion. But the knight elite comes with a great recoil pad. Maybe has something to do with it.

I also don't think anyone uses triple 7 on the thought its easier to clean. Its hard for me to get in that frame of mind cause I used it all and its all messy as all get out. I lump all powders in the same catagory. Its hard for us to know why people buy a new mL cause neither of us are new.

RE: Is More Better?
 

shoot 777 in my primitives, Pennsylvanian and trapper and have since they were new because I was told they are less corrosive and it seemed the right thing to do. I shoot pellets in my inlines because that’s what they were designed for I think.. I shoot my primitives with open sights and have a difficult time of it as I age I can’t see to well so the rear sight is pretty blurry. Try getting a sight picture when there are three parallel rear sights bouncing around. The Pennsylvanian Long gun gives the best sight picture because the rear sight is pretty far down the barrel. By the way that is in part the reason for the long barrel design. The historical old timers couldn’t see worth a damn either. Any when I started less corrosive seemed like a good idea since I was not sure about the cleaning thing. I have gotten better at cleaning over the last few years. Inlines with scopes seem to match.

RE: Is More Better?
 

I am new at muzzleloading myself and have done the trial and error load development for my gun. I am currently shooting 130 gr Pyrodex with a 250 gr Barnes Expander MZ. I am consistently shooting 1" groups at 125 yards and 2" at 200 yards. I am dead on at 125 yards and 13" low at 200 yards. The reason that I got started in muzzleloading is the easy of inline rifles. I am shooting a 50 cal Knight Disc rifle topped with a Zeiss Conquest 4.5-14 scope.

RE: Is More Better?
 

Briman,

With the advent of the new Polymer plastic - plastic fouling is greatly reduced - in fact I have never had a problem with plastic fouling and I rarely use brush and solvent... I do use hat water though. I have inspected the bores of my guns with a bore scope and really can not see much in the way of plastic. And for cleanup all do is stick a hose in the breech area and run hot tap water through. On occasions I will run boiling water through but not very often. I have shoot real black powder but i do worry about corrosion so I now shoot t7 that relieves some of that concern. Often during the season I might not clean - I mean strip clean the gun until the season is over so using t7 gives me less worry in that requards. So again t7 works better for me.

RE: Is More Better?
 

I noticed a lot of concern about the recoil with maximum loads of 777. I agree the sharp recoil from the 777 loads make it difficult to shoot the heavier loads. I mentioned earlier that I shoot Black Mag'3 and I can verify that maximum velocity can be had using BM3 with considerably less felt recoil than the same volume of 777 which will produce less velocity. 777 has a very rapid rise rate of the pressure curve which in most cases is not necessary or even desired for muzzleloading bullet performance. Black Mag'3 is also a lot less corrosive than 777. It is non-corrosive to steel and slightly corrosive to brass. I know that it is still difficult to find in a lot of areas (unfortunately my area is one of the ones that it does not exist in) but when you can get some to try you will be impressed as I was. BM3 works best with heavier bullets 295gr. and up. With 100gr. volume I get 2000fps out of a 300gr. bullet.

RE: Is More Better?
 

So you are shooting a BM3 rifle? Hmmm, that could bring to mind an unpleasant picture!;)

RE: Is More Better?
 

Didn't think about that but I guess It could be a messy program.