anyone on the ML page that gets over MOA?
 

I must suck at ML. I have had several from flinters lymans to my new elite to TC hawkens. I hear almost every guy on here claim 5/8" groups and 1" groups, but I have yet to see anyone get these groups over and over at any range. I have been very happy with 2.5MOA for years. All I could ask for. Sure, every once i a while I would get three cutting the same hole but it sure doesn't mean its a subMOA shooter. I see dozens of people every year at the range with thier ML and yet to see anyone get a honest 5/8's" group consistently. They will get a flyer 3" away and then tell me that don't count or he moved.

I just wonder if there is anybody else on here that has more practical results I can relate with .

RE: anyone on the ML page that gets over MOA?
 

bigcountry,

This is a real typical target for me (it certainly is not 5/8" or even 1").... At my age and with the equipment I have I feel pretty good about it... I know there are shooters with guns that can do better and I always challenge myself to try - None of my ML's are TARGET guns they are field hunting rifles that we try to do our best with.



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...loader/458.jpg

RE: anyone on the ML page that gets over MOA?
 

I guess I just need more experience. My 2 decades ain't enough.

RE: anyone on the ML page that gets over MOA?
 

Are you using a scope or shooting opened sights?

RE: anyone on the ML page that gets over MOA?
 

Scope on my knight disc. Scope on and off on MK-85. Scope on and off on my T/C Hawken. Open sights on lymans flint. Little bit of everything over the years. Why do you ask? Do you get .5" groups at 100 yards also?

RE: anyone on the ML page that gets over MOA?
 

here is a web site results from our postal shoot from oct....it's on a regular 3 x 5 index card with lines from corner to corner to make an X....this shoot was at 50 yds offhand and with open sights....it's not a 1" group but it is a 1 1/2" one at 50 yds offhand........bob

my card

RE: anyone on the ML page that gets over MOA?
 

Yeah Bigcountry, such MOA groups ARE possible with muzzleloaders.......... especially when shooting off of the bench. But I figure a lot of that depends on practice and a LOT on load development as well. My little Knight USAK just refuses to shoot any of my worked up loads poorly - not matter how hard I try to screw up a shot.

For instance, last week I was shooting a postal match which specified a certain target, with 2 tigers on it - each with a bullseye the size of a Quarter. The point was to kill one of the tigers on the page in less than six shots - with 1 bullseye or 3 body hits designating a kill. These were to be shot offhand standing. Well it had gotten pretty breezy Friday as a storm was moving in and shooting these with my M1A and .22Mag didn't work that well, so with only 15min of range time left - I pulled out my trusty USAK. I fired 1 fouling shot to prep the bore and then I shot this target at 40yds:
Dead Tigers

In the same windy conditions, I shot the bottom tiger first - that shot took me by surprise, so I had to try again on the top tiger - and DANG if I didn't bullseye it too.

So, YES these guns can do it................but finding THE load has a lot to do with it.:)

RE: anyone on the ML page that gets over MOA?
 

Oh, I am sure of it. Many a time I felt I had a MOA ML, but then went back to range again. Or bought new powder. Blackpowder and Pyrodex fire off very ineffiencelty compared to smokeless. I got 100's of targets showing clover leafs. But it sure doesnt mean I have a subMOA ML.

RE: anyone on the ML page that gets over MOA?
 

I have personally off a bench rest at 100 yards shots some groups well under 1". In other words all three shots touching. My trouble is the next time at the range it might shoot a 2" group or because of a flyer even worse. So yes, the small groups are possible like you said bigcountry. I would never say that I can do it each and every time I go to the range. Some days I swear I have never sighted in the rifle it shoots so bad.

I also shoot a lot. And I shoot a number of different rifles. My best rifle by far is my Thompson Center Black Diamond XR and then my Knight Wolverine. I'd hate to live on the difference between the two.

With open sights, I have never shot a 1" at 100 yards with any of my muzzleloaders, but I have shot some impressive groups with them also. I understand what your saying....:D

RE: anyone on the ML page that gets over MOA?
 

bigcountry,

I can not think of any way better to say what what cayugad has - it is so true for me also but I could have never gotten it into the simple words he did...

My real problem is frustration when this occurs and the impact points run out there even farther...

RE: anyone on the ML page that gets over MOA?
 

I put a lot of bullets through muzzleloaders through out the year as well as reg rifles and there are fellows capable of shooting tiny groups time after time but a muzzleloader is a muzzleloader.I have never seen one that would shoot 1/2 or less than a inch day after day,time after time or group after group.Its just the nature of the beast.I have shot lots of groups with different muzzleloaders less than an in @100 yds,some less than an inch @200,and some less than 3 in @300 yds,but on the other hand I have shot lots more groups that were over 1 in,and some way,way over.
What I have found out using the same rifle and load you have a moa shooter one day,the next day the same rifle and load you have a +moa.shooter.
I get lucky and get some good groups sometimes.These 3-shot groups were shot the same day using 2 different rifles.

RE: anyone on the ML page that gets over MOA?
 

Yucko, I have on a few occasions I have had a2” group at 50 yards 4” is more my norm. At A hundred yards I am still struggling. Ill get one an inch or so off the bull and the next two off by 6 inches or more. Because of this I don’t shoot over 50 yards. I have two inlines and a Pennsylvanian that all do this to me. All the help I have gotten on this thread has brought my shots closer together, thanks again. By the way what is MOA? I think except for some of the super experts on this thread 4” or so is the norm. When I read all the missed shots and poor placements on the Deer hunting thread I wonder if 10” isn’t more the average. Sorry I don’t get up to the BP thread more often off season but I can only spend so much time here and the non-hunting thread is fun off season.

RE: anyone on the ML page that gets over MOA?
 

I Have A Traditions Pursuit Pro with a scope. I Shot This Target At 125 yard's With A 300 gr Hornady SST And 100 gr of loose triple Se7en

RE: anyone on the ML page that gets over MOA?
 

Bigcountry and folks,

Herman is on the right track describing this.

To add: In my view, the phenomena of 100yd MOA ML for the average shooter would likely be better quantified in average groups versus a single group from a bench.

I would say that many of the rifles, powders and projectiles available are certainly capable of shooting MOA on a regular basis.

Then comes the variables that can can alter MOA capability: Shooter, primer, fouling, fouling deviation, barrel condition and tolerances, projectiles, cleaning proceedures and methods, powder burn deviations, weather and likely more.
The top shooters are the folks that can manage and control the "variables" the best.

I would consider myself about a 2-ish" average ML shooter. Somtimes better than 2" sometimes much worse with a nasty flier now and then that really screws things up.
[&:]

For example I can and have shot 1" groups and even a couple of times sub 1" groups from both an scoped MK-85 and a Rem 700. This said, I've also shot really terrible groups as much as 3-5" with the exact same everything (or so I thought) thanks to a flier or two or sometimes nothings seems to want to group.

The folks that are honestly and on average, regularly shooting MOA or less are logging a great deal of time at the range and possibly not with typical off the shelf approach that most of us average shooters do. These folks are very meticulous managing to the best of thier ability, all of the possible "variables to MOA".

Bigcountry, with an ML and 2.5 MOA average I'd say you are doing pretty well.

My .002...
;)

RE: anyone on the ML page that gets over MOA?
 

Ding, ding, ding. Finally a man with experience, integity, and honest with himself and fellow shooting buddies who we all can learn alot from.

RE: anyone on the ML page that gets over MOA?
 

And another man who is honest with himself with probably alot of experience we can learn from.

Tahqu, that 2.5MOA is with 100's of man hours finding the right combo too with all the different rifles.

RE: anyone on the ML page that gets over MOA?
 

Thanks BC! I've been at ML shooting for some time but not nearly as much or as frequent as many folks out there.
31 years ago, there was little variability for me. I had a T/C Hawken 50 cal percussion and I shot patched roundball and black powder.
After much practice I felt comfortable shooting iron sights in a hunting situation at 75-100 yards.

No Davey Crockett but I learned to shoot and still can with the old "Hawk".

Exactly right on the time it can take. Those of us that have been shooting ML's for some time have certainly logged in a bunch of time fiddling around with what shoots, works and is the most consistent for our individual preferences and rifles.

In my view the changes with the introduction of more competitive manufacturing, technology, inlines, synthetic powders, projectiles and ignitions is what made things both more refined as well as more difficult.
The vastness and diversity of choice is not always more helpful. It can often just makes things more "cluttered". Especially for the person that is an occassional or seasonal only shooter.

The benefit for the new ML'er today is that many of the rifles, products and combinations are developed to a point of consistency and quality that the new shooter can get on "Target" relatively quickly with some suggested load combinations. Then the investment, practice, refinement begins if someone wishes to hone their skills and capabilities.

The internet has also been instrumental on getting folks on the "Target" much faster and taking some of the guesswork from trial and error.

Take this forum for instance. There are a great many folks that have true real experiences that can offer the new ML'er a wonderful repository of information and learning.

I learn new things all the time.
:)

RE: anyone on the ML page that gets over MOA?
 

I was going to post some of my 6" groups but didn't think anyone would be interested. [:-] On a good day, when I'm right, when the weather is right, when the planets are properly aligned.......I have sometimes shot the sub-moa stuff.

But I think Ed Mehlig can do it pretty consistently. His groups on this page were shot all on the same day using bullets that I and another fellow cast and sent him. His targets have the half-inch squares. I've got three groups in that conglomeration - the one with the Mose bullets are the first three out of my barrel (I think they were the first three out of any barrel).

RE: anyone on the ML page that gets over MOA?
 

I am sure people can do it. I watched as the fella from Ohio shot 5 clover leafs to win camp perry a while back. But his gun was like 30lbs.

I just have a hard time believing everybody on this page can. I think these web pages can be a bad thing. I know this young fella that just got into guns. He was reading all the posts on the gun page. And his new 270win got 1.5-1.75" groups. He was all upset, and ready to sell it and take to a gunsmith to work on. I explained a little about BS, a little about alot of experience, and a little on trying different ammo explained, I thought he was doing outstanding for his first rifle. The people that drive me crazy is like my best buddy. He shoots an honest 3.5MOA every time I see him on average. But just cause he has gotten 2 groups clover leafing, every group he doesn't see that, he said he pulled, or that was him.

There is something magical about 1MOA that has to be achieved for some reason. All seasoned people understand that its not needed by a long shot from a ML.

RE: anyone on the ML page that gets over MOA?
 

Striper Phil.......................

To answer your question, MOA means "Minute of Angle". This is a geometric value for figuring accuracy. Here's a link with a decent explanation of how it's figured:
MOA

Unless you're the scientific type that understands all that, suffice it to say that MOA accuracy at 100yds would be a group that measures no more than 1.047" .

RE: anyone on the ML page that gets over MOA?
 

I have shot sub-MOA groups from my Rem 700 MLS, but it is not a sub-MOA muzzleloader, because it will not produce that level of accuracy day-in and day-out. Sometimes I will shoot groups of 1.0"-2.0", and at times maybe as high as 2.5". That's about as big as the groups will expand, under normal circumstances.

And that is a big issue, as there are a lot of variables associated with muzzleloaders that the average guy doesn't realize. I went to check my sights two years ago and was shooting 5.0"-6.5" groups. I checked the scope mounts, bedding, you name it and could find no culprit. I opened a new box of pellets and fired three shots into 1.3". The box of pellets I was using was from last season, and although closed and stored in a relatively low humidity environment, had degraded to the point that accuracy was non-existant.

Add in factors like perhaps not starting bullets down the muzzle EXACTLY perfect every time, or not cleaning nipples with a nipple pick EVERY time, and it is easy to see how a 2.0" group at 100 yards in a muzzleloader is actually a good thing. Smaller is always better, but not always attainable.

Brian

RE: anyone on the ML page that gets over MOA?
 

Thanks Mark whiz. that was agreat page and yes I am fairly adept at, went to college to be a math teacher and switched to radiological engineering. I'm not sure MOA is being used correctly in all cases here. Seems it is being used as synonymous with 1 inch.

RE: anyone on the ML page that gets over MOA?
 

Well, you can add this topic to a list that includes fishing stories and sexual prowness! I'm lucky to shoot 2 inch groups at 50 yds with open sights.

RE: anyone on the ML page that gets over MOA?
 

Hang on there Mike, I might not be able to get 5/8" groups every time with ML, but pretty well, they call me the ladies man. Its very difficult, getting out of your house beating them off with a stick begging me to have thier babies and all. But being good looking is just a curse. I mean me and Gene Simmons have to bear this cross.:D:D:D

RE: anyone on the ML page that gets over MOA?
 

Hold on! I gotta go put on my waders, it's getting deep quick!

:D

RE: anyone on the ML page that gets over MOA?
 

Believe me it sure ain't the biggest whopper told on this forum.

RE: anyone on the ML page that gets over MOA?
 

;)