suggestions on starter ML
 

Hello,

Im a very avid hunter, and want to get a muzzleloader since we cant hunt with centerfires in Illinois, just ml or slug guns.
I love my slug gun, but would like the added range of the smoke pole.

What would be a good gun to start myself out with?

I'd like a scoped gun, and something reliably accurate from close range out to 200yds.
Of course, reasonably priced as well.

Ok guys, whats your poison:D

Mat

RE: suggestions on starter ML
 

Since you're looking for some extreme range shooting I would suggest getting a very good quality rifle. Look at the Knight, Thompson Centers, CVA, Traditions and H&R and other brands, top of the line guns. Many of them are going to be expensive. Your also going to want something with a longer barrel because of the distances you want to shoot.

There are many rifles that will get you into the black powder sport and they are reasonable. If you practice with almost any of them and find the right load, they will shoot well.

It will take a lot of practice to be able to shoot 200 yards with any muzzleloader. Shooting from the bench rest at the local rod and gun club is a lot different then leaning into a tree out in the back 40. So find a good load and practice.....

RE: suggestions on starter ML
 

i dont imagine with a scoped .50 cal it would be tough at all

I pulled off a 120yd shot on a small deer this past year through brush, turned around backwards in my stand, with my open sight slug gun, 20ga, so yea, i think a decent gun would easily be capable of taking a deer from out to 200 yards. Im only 19 so my skinny flexible ass is good at craning around for those tough shots;)

Im just getting tired of missed opportunities at BIG deer in our big bean field b/c of limited range.

Im not looking to go cheap, i just dont want to start myself with the most expensive gun you could find.

I have all summer to get the feel for the gun:D

Thanks guys

RE: suggestions on starter ML
 

ShootStuff88

The best sales on Knights & T/Cs are in August. I suggest waiting until then unless you find a nearby sale at a store online or near you geographically

RE: suggestions on starter ML
 

If you have a Gander Mountian store in your area check it out, because they are running a sale with discounts on pratically all things related to hunting to help clear out there inventory. I even got a discount on a new gun. Though it was just a Ruger k/1022 not really a hunting weapon, they did have all the guns discounted.'

For the money I think you'll find the NEF Sidekick or Huntsman tough to beat. Knight and TC make great guns to but they seem to cost more.


Good luck

RE: suggestions on starter ML
 

I have to agree that you can't go wrong with a Knight or T/C. Both make various models to fit your wallet size and both have excellent service departments. Triple Se7en and Rwalter63 are right about checking in the off season. A lot of your firearm sellers are cutting great deals on guns they are getting ready to store away until the next hunting season. Plus, I like to go to gun shows if you have any in your area. I just snagged a super deal on a Ruger 77/50 that I believe is in the same quality class as a Knight & T/C. But I believe from now until September is the time to look for muzzleloaders as it is now considered their off season.

It would also pay to remember the forum name Cayugad who earlier replied to your question. From what I have read of his responses in these forums, he seems to be "da man" when it comes to black powder. He also seems ready, willing, and able to help anyone who has questions and his info is right on the money.

RE: suggestions on starter ML
 

Hey Shootstuff88!

Cayugad brings a good point (as usual ;) ). It's takes a good deal of practice to consistantly be accurate at 200 yards.

Triple Se7en is correct as most of the deals are going to show up in the latter part of the summer. But, I would suggest not waiting until then as once you figure out what you want you can start shopping for a good deal and then begin shooting and getting your feet wet.

What is your definition of reasonably priced?
Bunch of things to consider (Rifle, optics-mounts, boresighting, accessories).

Get your hands on as many rifles as you can and narrow the field based on what feels the best to you handling-wise. Then after you figure out what feels good it will be easier for you to narrow the field down

For a 200 yard reliable package you can likely expect to end up in the $600-1000+ retail department depending on:
Rifle ($250-750+)
Optics, rings & mounts ($200-600),
Boresighting and installations ($20-40),
Accessories ($100-300)
Rangefinder for accurately determining 200 yards :) ($200-600)

Also expect to pony up more coin for stainless or nickel finishes and the like.

Lots of good info in this forum. Dig around, ask alot of questions.

Best,

Tahquamenon

RE: suggestions on starter ML
 

thanks for the tips gentlemen.

I wont need a rangefinder, as 200yds is the LONGEST i would do, i dont want to always be shooting that far, i would simply like to know that i CAN.

im ok with spending up to 5 hundred or so, but would like to keep it under that mark if i can.

If i cant, its not really worth it to me, i can already shoot 150ish yards with my slug gun, maybe a little more if i scoped it, so its not worth 500+ to me for an extra 50 yards.


Mat

RE: suggestions on starter ML
 

it sounds like the cva staghorn is the gun you are looking for its inline magnum with 209 caps and you can load up to 150 grains of powder and hasa range of up to 500 yards it costs about 150-180 bucks i got mine at miejers for 150 dollars

RE: suggestions on starter ML
 

The CVA Staghorn 209 Magnum is no longer offered. It was replaced in the CVA line by the Buckhorn Magnum. Although it is able to shoot 150 grains of pellets (not loose.. check owners manual) I have never got any kind of accuracy from my Staghorn with more then 90 grains of powder. Also I purchased mine with black composite stock and nickel barrel for $89.00 from Bass Pro when they were selling off their stock of them a year ago.

As for the claim of 500 yards... well I think that is pushing the limit with any muzzleloader and some centerfires for that matter. My CVA Staghorn is more then able to shoot out to 100 yards on a consistant basis. I have never really tried it further then that. I guess with the right optics and practice I would attempt something further with lots of range time under my belt. I do like the simple striker design of the rifle and it is easy enough to clean and care for.

With the dollar amount the poster states of then I would be looking at the Thompson Center Omega, or some of the Knight Rifles. I am not sure if The .45 caliber Knight Wolverine is still available, but I am sure with the rifle projectiles such as a Barnes Expander this would be a 200 yard rifle.... And being on sale for $139.00 is a real bargin.

I am not an advocate of the .45 caliber but for whitetail deer I am sure that a well placed shot will do the trick. Also being of the Knight quality I am going to guess that this would be an excellent rifle for field shooting....

Poster Triple Se7en might be able to give you more accurate information on the ability of the Knight .45 caliber then I can. I love Knight rifles, but have never owned or shot a .45 caliber inline.....

RE: suggestions on starter ML
 

I think these prices might be a little on the high side. I picked up my NEF Sidekick for $159, put on a Bushnell Banner Dusk to Dawn Scope ($69), Millet see through High mount rings ($19), NEF mounting Base and trigger extenstion ($20) and accessories (extra range ram rod, patch puller, patchs, solvents, bullet starter, speed loaders, bullets and 777 pellets and a few more things. ($120). Total price $387. I just purchased these this fall. The accessories are from memory the rest I am sure on the prices. CVA makes a nice kit that includes a lot of the accessories you'll need. I picked up the kit for $49.00.
I believe Thompson Center fire also makes a bolt action model that are can be bought for around $200. Either way expect it to run $400 on the low end. All my items were purchased at local stores except the base mount and trigger extension which came direct from NEF.


I do think though if your going to shoot 200+ yards a range finder is some thing that you should have. I believe the point Tahquamenon was trying to make is that it can be hard to accurately judge 200 yards out in the woods or even on and open field. what you think might be 200 yards might be 230 yards. That can make a big difference. I also not saying that I can shoot accurately with my gun to that range but others who have the Sidekick can. I never tried at that range yet since I just got this gun last fall. I know that at 100 yards its plenty accurate enough for me. I believe Thompson Center fire also makes a bolt action model that are can be bought for around $200. Here is a review on the sidekick from a repected member of the muzzleloading community.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/nef_sidekick.htm

While your at the web site do your self the favor and read the rest of the articles and reviews it will be time well spent.


Good Luck

http://www.chuckhawks.com/index2h.muzzleloader.htm

RE: suggestions on starter ML
 

If the $500 range is your budget then you can still work up a good in-line muzzy.
Everyone's needs are different.
I'm guessing .50 Caliber?

Perhaps a good used setup or components could be found? If you look, you can eventually find.

Look at it this way:
$50-100 is shot on accessories regardless of what you get (Powder, projectiles to include practicing, primers, cleaning supplies, range rod, loaders, measuring and maintenance tools and other nit-niods).

Then a working budget of $400-450 for rifle and optics/rings/mounts.

Take a look at the following;
-New or nice used Rifle$$200-325: T/C Black Diamond XR or Omega Blue/Syn, Knight Elite or Wolverine, CVA Optima Pro, Traditions Pursuit Pro.
-Optics (used and new on ebay for example) $100-150: Nikon Prostaff 3x9x40 (new for $129 on ebay), Leupold Rifleman or VX-I 2x7x33 or M8 4x used with lifetime warranty for sometimes around $150.
-Rings and mounts $25-50: Weaver, Millet.
Installation and boresighting: $20-40.

Retail=You will be close to $500-ish total including accessories. I'd budget $600.

Used but decent= for $400.00 you can find a really nice rifle w/scope if you look + $50-100 for accessories.

Could go with the rifle of choice and accessories this year and the optics next?

Good luck!

RE: suggestions on starter ML
 

My needs were pretty much the same as yours.I'll probably never take a 200 yard shot but it's nice to know the rifle could......I bought a cva firebolt (inline) .45 for $170.The ballestic chart for two 50 grain pellets and powerbelt hollowtip showed it had killing power and bullet drop out close to 300 yards if I remember right .I enjoy shooting it even though I haven't killed a deer with it yet.I spent about another $100. on scope and acc.It's as accurate with me shooting as my centerfire rifles.I also bought a buckhorn .50 for one of my boys and it shoots fine.It was a complete kit for about $160.A great way to get started for deer hunting.

RE: suggestions on starter ML
 

The Wolverine 209 is a Best Buy right now. You can purchase one for $139 by clicking right here.

RE: suggestions on starter ML
 

I just recently purchased a 50 cal. inline but I own 3 muzzleloaders in 45 caliber and have gotten many deer with the 45 calibers. Two of them are sidelocks and the third is a Knight Wolverine that Cayugad brought up. I shot a buck at 140 yards with the Knight two months ago and I believe it could go to 200 yards if I wanted it to. I live in Virginia so our deer are not the monsters that are found out west or up north. I'm using a 275 powerbelt bullet with 85 grains of BlackMag3 powder if that helps should you go the 45 cal. route. I still believe the 50 is the best all around way to go that would let you hunt just about every State and also larger game. But there are some awfully good deals on the 45's at this time.

RE: suggestions on starter ML
 

I am 17 and was in about the same place as you. I wanted a good ml that would last my lifetime if i wanted it to. I ended up buying an Omega. I got the thumbhole version, but that was just because thats what I really wanted and I didnt mind spending the extra money on it. I shoot SST's 250 grain out of it and can get groups through the same hole at 100 yards. I havent shot at 200 yards yet, but i'm sure the groups will be 3-4" or better. I thought I would rather spend a little money and get a good gun that would last forever that I really wanted. I'm very glad I did because the gun is just awesome. I put a Simmons AETEC scope on it ($160) which is an awesome scope with a lifetime warranty. Be sure to get good bases and rings like Leupold. I think you should spend a little bit more for a quality gun instead of buying a cheaper one now and having to get another one later because the cheap one isnt what you wanted, which will be more money overall. I think a synthetic stock Omega with blued barrel is only about $325 or so. I ended up paying almost $1000 for my whole setup, but I did not have to spend that much to have a good quality setup- I chose to. TC makes great guns, lifetime warranty, and outstanding customer service. You might also check into a Black Diamond XR for long range, not sure of the prices. I highly recommend getting a TC gun. I've not had experience with the Knights, but everyone else says they are good also. Good luck

RE: suggestions on starter ML
 

ok, im really looking hard at the Knight .45 Wolverine HERE

My understanding is this is a plastic-disc type ignition?
i really dont mind ignition system, i usually dont need to take follow up shots;)

I have no doubt .45 is substantial for deer, the shotgun sabots i shoot are like a .41 cal slug, so...yea

Anyone have experience with this gun?
I'd like to spend the extra $30 for SS, then i can scope it after i get it.

opinions again gentlemen!?

Mat

RE: suggestions on starter ML
 

What you are looking at is exactly what I have in my 45 cal. inline and I love it. My two sidelocks are blued but my Wolverine is stainless. I prefer the stainless because it does resist rusting but it will corrode if you mistreat it or neglect it. It is also easier to tell when it is clean or not. The disc system is basically a carrier for your 209 primer. Knight seems to think this adds to making it weatherproof and I guess to some extent it does. Check out this article from Randy Wakeman about selecting a muzzleloader.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/select_muzzleloader.htm

http://www.chuckhawks.com/index2h.muzzleloader.htm

The second link are other articles on this webpage that can give you a lot of info from calibers, loads, and also rifle tests.

RE: suggestions on starter ML
 

i didnt know they stopped making the stag horn that sucks i really liked mine i sold it in november to cover rent on e monthand was goingot go by a new one this spring [:@]

i never tryed it at 500 yards either but they stated in the manual i got with it that if you use three 50 grain prodex pellets(i prefer clean shot pellets but they are getting harder ad n harder to find lately ) you can shoot out to 500 yards the most i ever tryed and made was a 275 yard shot with it at a stationary target

RE: suggestions on starter ML
 

shoot stuff 88 i wanted to get in to muzzy huntin to and i bought a cva optima 209# 50. caliber. iv never shot it and will sell it to u for 200.oo dollars its still in original box. im sellin it because i got into bowhunting alot more:D if ur interested my email is [email protected]

thanks caleb

RE: suggestions on starter ML
 

Im not sure about Illinois, but here in Indiana you cant shoot sabots out of a 45 cal ml. The minimum bullet diameter is .44 inches here. I would go with a 50 anyway because they can do anything a 45 can as good or better.

RE: suggestions on starter ML
 

i dug a little into regs, and yes, the smallest bullet dia is .44 from a muzzy, so i guess the .45 is out unless im shootin powerbelts or conicals.

Anyone have experience with the CVA Optima?
Good/bad/ugly?

MAt

RE: suggestions on starter ML
 

(Click Here) NEF Sidekick 50 wood $159

RE: suggestions on starter ML
 

I picked up a T/C Omega last year, great gun. Omega with 777 pellets and Precision Dead Center bullets very easy to keep clean and very accurate. my 2 cents worth.

RE: suggestions on starter ML
 

the brand you get will be a personal preference. Research it on the net and in mags. I would, however, suggest that what ever brand you get, have it be a breech action (or "rolling block" type). They are very simple and easy to clean.

ps - I have a Rossi (basically the same as an NEF) and love ot