Melted Sabot?
 

While seating the second round in my encore, I noticed that it lacked about an inch going all the way down. I removed the breech plug and drove the bullet back out of the barrel. After inspecting the bore, I noticed that there appeared to be melted plastic where the bullet hung up. Was this melted sabot from the first shot, or was it from the second sabot and caused by loading it into a still warm barrel?
I want to try seasoning the barrel, but I'm not quite sure how. I was told to apply Borebutter between shots, but do I clean between applying the Borebutter?

Thanks,
Deerplague

RE: Melted Sabot?
 

My guess is, that if you are using 777 you are experiencing the "crud ring" rather than melted plastic.

I've been using 777 with sabots for about two years now, occaisionally powerbelts too, and see this every time. What I do is use a T/C 250 grain sabot for the first shot and then a power belt for the second. Inside 100 yards they are only a few inches apart and the power belt can be loaded after a shot where as the SST sabots are so tight I don't think there is any way you could load one in a dirty barrel.

You should be able to clean the barrel well enuff after two or three spit patches, and then a good dry one to load another sabot though. After 4 or 5 sabots, you might need some plastic dissolver, there are several brands of this on the market.

I want to experiment with using 3 pellets and a lubed wad under the bullet. I know the lubed wad would cut down on crud, but am hesitant to use three pellets.
R
Hank

RE: Melted Sabot?
 

deerplague

Just guessing, but it really sounds like the famous "crud ring" formed when firing 777 with a very hot primer...

I do you use bore butter but not between shots, and not with sabots they have their own lubrication system. A lot of people are going to tell not to use BB at all but it works very effectivley at reducing fouling, including plastic fowling if it is used properly. I would add that no BB is better than a lot.

Barrel seasoning into todays metals really isn't probably the best term to use, although that is what BB says. I use the term I "treat" the barrel with BB and I do it with a very hot cleaned barrel, heck I am even treating my shotgun chokes the same way now reducing the plastic fowling they take on dramatically. I beleive that is the true value of BB reducing fouling - and as a side note I would include reducing the "crud ring" - I do not get it at all.

If you would like further dialog on how this individual treats barrels let me know and I will send you or post copy of my routine.

Good luck... and I am sure you will get a lot of hot opinions...

RE: Melted Sabot?
 

I don't know what a crud ring looks like, but this thing looked like a spot of spattered candle wax on the wall of the bore.
I was telling the salesman at Bass Pro that I thought my sabot was melting, and he started nodding before I finished talking. He said that this is very common and that treating the barrel with about 30 rounds with swabbing BB in between would do the trick.
I trust y'alls opions, so I figured I would ask y'all too.

Thanks,
Deerplague

RE: Melted Sabot?
 

deerplague

Let's not even worry about the BB thing right now that will be a different battle and a decision only you can make.

So help me out if you have time:

What rifle are you shooting?

What powder and how much are you shooting?

Which primer system are you using? if it is 209 which brand of 209's?

Which bullet?

and which brand of sabots?

Did you recover your sabot? if so what does it look like?

How difficult is it to get the sabot down and seated with a clean barrel?

With these questions answered a much more direct answer can be provided... I would still lean towards "crud ring" but ya never know.....

A suggestion if you plan doing a good deal of shooting pick up a range rod, if you are only going to shoot it for hunting and sighting in stay with your regular ram rod.

look forward to you next post....

RE: Melted Sabot?
 

i have seen the sabot chewed up from to big a powder load for the type sabot but never a melted one,pick up one you shot and look it over good they fly about 10 yards and hit the ground in front of you when you shoot.

RE: Melted Sabot?
 

there's no such thing as seasoning a modern day gun barrel....is it made of cast iron no then it does not need to be seasoned....there's a thing call lapping a barrel....if your talking muzzleloader of any kind then wrap some 0000 steel wool around your cleaning jag and with some gun oil like a cleaning patch and run it up and down bout 50 times....what this does is take off the little burrs that come from rifleing a barrel that are left on the top of the lands of the rifleing....if your comeing up with cut patches after once down and up with your wiping after the shot you may have this problem....like i did have with my T/C hawken barrel....some 0000 steel wool and oil and 40-50 passes with your ram rod it should smooth out your barrel....and unless your barrel is made of cast iron your can't season a barrel....even with my flintlock and cleaning it with hot water to get out any black powder fouling i make sure it's dry and run a patch of gun oil down the barrel just like you would do with a centerfire rifle to keep it from rusting............................bob

RE: Melted Sabot?
 

If your sure it is plastic meltdown from the sabot, then bore butter is not going to solve that. You need to change sabots. You did not mention what kind of sabot your shooting, but I have shot Thompson Center Mag Express sabots with 120 grains of powder and never had any problem. I will guess that your shooting pellets and not loose powder. So I would loose the pellets, and change sabots to something else. Swab between shots and I think your problems will disappear. If need be, you can use a bore brush and scrub the bore between shots.

RE: Melted Sabot?
 

First of all, thanks for all of the great information.
As for my equipment, I am shooting a T/C Encore with 2 of the regular Pyrodex pellets (not the 777) and Winchester primers. The bullets and sabots that I am having trouble with are the Hornady Lock-N-Loads (the ones with the stem on the sabot that hold the pellets). Sabotloader, I did not think about recovering the sabot.
I am pretty hot that I put down one of the best shooting Hawkens in the world for a new high tech inline that won't even shoot twice without a cleaning in between. It looks like I should have just put a 209 kit and scope on my Hawkens. As you guys know, a gun that has to be swabbed between each shot is of little use on a hunt. I am all about keeping my bore super clean between hunts, but a of this special treatment seems a little too much.
I am considering trying the Hawken's favorites in the Encore (FFF and buffalo balls). Any thoughs. There has to be a simple solution.

Thanks and please keep the great info coming,
Deerplague

RE: Melted Sabot?
 

Instead, get some No Excuses Conicals they are 460 grain and .503 diameter. Load them with about 80 grains of FFFg powder. The accuracy out of my Black Diamond XR is fantastic and I have shot seven in a row without a swab. Anything you hit downrange with one of these is over....

I am wondering if that plastic stem off that lock and load sabot is not melting when the fire come up between the pellets your shooting? Before I curse the rifle, I would try some Thompson Center Mag Express sabots with a 240 or 300 grain XTP bullets and see what happens. Also I would get rid of the pellets. I personally shoot good old fashon Goex FFFg gun powder. And I have fowling but no crud ring. I have a bigger clean up job, but so what. I never took this sport up to wear a white suit and shoot at the range. I also have the cheapest cost powder out there. The powder with the fastest ignition rate, excellent accuracy, excellent water resistance compared to the other powders, and all the smoke and stink a man could want.....:D

RE: Melted Sabot?
 

deerplague

Thanks for the information - I really belive your hi-tec Encore is a better rifle than you give it credit for.

I agree with Cayugad about the possibilty of the stem burning & even the probablilty that it could happen. I have never shot those sabots so I am not a qualified source of information on that fact.

The 460 NE bullet that Cayugad suggested to you is a very good lead projectile and if you are required to shoot lead but if you can use sabots there are a lot better bullets out there that shoot flatter and faster. If all of your shooting is a t relative short ranges the 460 is outstanding. If you plan to test the limits of the Encore or you want to be ready to shoot the limits of that gun I would go a different direction.

I myself shoot basically two different bullets, a 300 grain bullet for Elk and a 260 grain bullet for whitetail/mule deer. The 260 is an amazing bullet. I must tell for hunting I do shoot Nosler Partitions - for the range and recreation I shoot Hornadys.

The elk load is 100 grains of t7-2f loose powder, an Orange MMP .458 Sabot, and Nosler .458 (45/70) 300 grain Partition - they work great on the thicker skin of an elk. The deer load is the same powder Nosler Sabot and a 260 grain Nosler Partition. Hunting is not necessary to swab between shots - I can get of about six shots before thay get dfficult to get down. I believe a part of this is the way i treat my barrels - things just do not stick to them + t7 is a little cleaner than any of the pyros... These bullets are quick and relatively flat as compared to the 460. We do not get to ambush deer and elk very often here in this part of Idaho a lot of the shots are at moving animals especially late in the season - ranges vary from 10 yard to ??? what ever your personal limit is. I really feel more comfortable with these ballistics.

Winchester primers are awful hot, might want to try some CCI 209's or even some french Cheddites - they work really well.

Here are a couple of targets just for general information....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...loader/458.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...der/Target.jpg

Hope some of this helps some - let me know if I can help you with anything...

RE: Melted Sabot?
 

That is some nice shooting there sabotloader. I kind of like the bigger bullets myself, but the No Excuses are sure accurate in the Black Diamond...

Another one to try in the Buffalo Bullet 375 grain SSB sabot. I buy them at Cabela's and they are a great shooting sabot. Very accurate and excellent down range energy. Sabotloader has a point about if your shooting long range, a good sabot might be the way to go.

RE: Melted Sabot?
 

cayugad

I have a very high regard for you Cayugad - I personally think you are one of those guys that could pick up any rifle, a gooden or a baden, and shoot off your sticks better than anyone else or even better than the gun should - I have know doubt that any bullet will shoot well for you from any of your guns.

I know you and a lot of other people really like those heavy projectiles and there is no doubt about there abilities, but I am still hooked on the fast & somewhat flat theory. The time it takes for a 460 grain projectile to get down range seems really long to me, now with that statement it is hard for me to remember more than a handful of shots that I have taken greater than 100 - BUT, what if?

According to my calculations a:
300 grain projectile with a Muzzle velocity of 1750 fps will have 1463 fps & 1426 fp of energy at a 100 and +2.83" and at 200 have a velocity of 1230 with 1007fpe & down 9" - Zero range 143 yards.

a 460 with a MV of 1400fps, it will have a velocity of 1222fps and 1526 fpe @ a 100 and +2" - at 200 it will be down -18" have a velocity of 1102fps and 1240fpe - Zero range 119 yards.

With the Nosler Partition if I hit it, and I will hit it, I am pretty much guaranteed penetration, shock, and a devastating sprial cut wound channel.

Just the rambling thoughts of an ameture in the world of shooting and performance knowledge. It is all in the results..

RE: Melted Sabot?
 

Deerplague:

I went back to range yesterday and picked up my lock and loads. I only found one and none of it was melted, not even the stem. I believe I am shooting the same set up as you 250 SST with the lock and load sabot with 2 reg pyrodex pellets out of a Encore 50cal. the grouping were poor IMO around 2.5" to 3" @ 100yrds off sand bags. They tightened up from day before. I think the gun just needs to be broke in so to speak (more shots). I am going to send my in to someone to get a trigger job after the last of January. The 4 to 5 #s it is pulling now is unacceptable. I feel like you do. I sold a rem. 700ml to buy the Encore and I could cut holes @ 100 yrds every time I shot. I do not mind the cleaning between shots as I have always done so. I am going to experiment with a follow up shot (for hunting)with the 245gr or 295gr power belt once I get it right with the 250SST's as they are much easier to load.

RE: Melted Sabot?
 

I have a stainless Omega which has a similar barrel to your Encore. T/ C barrels tend to be very tight. Loading any sabot in mine is difficult when clean and almost impossible when fouled. The worst fouling occurs with 777. I did a lot of stuff to try to use 777 powder. I bought the .25ACP rifle primer conversion breechplug. I bought all three configuration breechplugs. I lapped the barrel with 200 passes of JB on a patch over a bronze brush. I shot Powerbelts to smooth the bore. After all this I still could not load a second shot with a Hornady sabot after shooting ffg 777 with charges from 80gr. to 100gr. I tried American Pioneer Powder which allows one or two shots in a row without a swab. I shot Pyrodex which also allows a couple of shots but is real dirty. I finally found some Black Mag3 powder and WHAT A DIFFERENCE!!!! I can shoot multiple shots without a swab. Point of impact does not change from clean to multiple shots after clean. Velocity is higher over my chronograph with equal volume of BM3 and ffg 777. Recoil is softer and feels like less which with the increased velocity is almost difficult to believe. I can use 209 primers or the .25ACP conversion and it is slightly better with the rifle primers but 209's work with this powder too. I no longer worry about the 777 crud ring. PS; BM3 is supposed to be non-corrosive (that part I don't trust as yet).

RE: Melted Sabot?
 

Yello felt disk over the powder evens out pressures and improves groups. I clean between shots but never sight in to include my first shot of the day.