Who finds good accuracy at 150gr
 

A great guy on here helped me get a Disc at a steal. Thanks racks. Anyway, how many people have good accuracy (~3" at 100 yards) with 150gr load of pyrodex or 777. What bullet would be suitable. Knight said to use 300gr bullets with 150gr. They must have beefed up that barrel to withstand alot more pressure with 300gr and 150gr of powder.

My standard bullet is 240gr Hornady XTP's, and recently 250gr barnes, and 250gr SST.

Anybody like the 300gr redhots from knight?

RE: Who finds good accuracy at 150gr
 

Well, I find it hard to believe that hardly anyone needs 150 grains of powder. That must pack some wallop! I will be hunting elk with 90 grains of 777 this next fall (which is equivalent to 105 gr of pyrodex), and that should be plenty of power. If you shoot the gun at ranges it was intended for, less than about 150 yards, this would still be plenty of power. My own personal limit is 100 yards since I will have to hunt with open sights.

Not preaching, you do what you want, just giving you my 2 cents.

By the way, you probably already know this, but in case there are any newbies that are reading this, never use 150 grains of loose 777 powder, only use 3 - 50 gr pellets. Max on powder would be about 120 grains (equivalent to 150 gr pyrodex).

RE: Who finds good accuracy at 150gr
 

Who needs 150gr of powder? Well, someone that uses a 30-06 for deer probably might. A inline that shoots 90gr of pyrodex and 240gr bullet has less shock and energy than a 30-06 by a long shot. Or 270win, or most of the classical deer calibers.

I have yet to have a 150gr muzzleloader. I have killed a pile of deer with my sidelock and old inline, but want some more power. I won't take shots over 60 or so yards now. Why? They don't bleed much with muzzleloader when I have shot at 100 yards. I have found deer that was a double lunger shot at 110yards, hundreds of yards away. And didn't start bleeding until 40 or so yards. Also, didn't get a passthru. So I have been using the rule of 60 yards or so for the past few years. Where I hunt in the swamps in MD for sika deer, I would like to further my range a tad, and have a passthru. I have also lost a few deer when shooting that far. That was 4 or so years ago. Since then I have 100% success with shots 60 and below. I have used balls, barnes, XTP's, etc., and killed with all of them, but don't see near the damage I get with a 270win.

And besides, its fun trying new combos, and options. First off, I look for accuracy. So if I can't get at least 3" groups at 100 yards with 150gr of whatever, I will drop it down.

Instead of hear success stories with 90gr of whatever, I want to hear from those guys that shoot accurately with 150gr of powder/pellets, whatever.

RE: Who finds good accuracy at 150gr
 

Don't want to hijack the thread, but the terminal performance discussed above relates to the projectile, not the distance. I hate sabots, not because of accuracy, but the bullet. They may have gotten better recently but I saw quite a few deer that were hard to recover because of poor bullet performance. Often it was because of lack of penetration, no pass through. I've stuck with lead conicals, shot a bunch of deer, and had no trouble recovering deer that were hit right. 99% of the time I get pass throughs, and when I don't it's because I shot them end to end. The bullet is usually under the hide on the far end of the deer. Blood trails a blind man could follow. I shoot a T/C Renegade that has a 1:48 twist. I know a lot of inlines don't handle conicals well, but I feel that you will only help yourself by choosing the largest diameter, heaviest sabot you can shoot. Muzzleloaders are not high-powered rifles, they kill with bullet weight, and two big holes to leave a good trail.

RE: Who finds good accuracy at 150gr
 

Well, you may be right about finding a lead bullet, but I cold never get them to fly like a XTP. Then that defeats my purpose of wanting more range.

RE: Who finds good accuracy at 150gr
 

I shoot a T/C Encore 50 cal. using two 50 gr. and one 30gr. Pyrodex pellets with a Hornady 250 gr. SSt on top of this charge. Last year this load killed 8 white tales for me, 3 of them at 200 yds. You have to shoot a lot to know how your rifle is shooting, to do this. But it can be done. Good luck oldsnow.

RE: Who finds good accuracy at 150gr
 

bigcountry,
I gotcha covered...
I shoot 150gr (3pyro pellets) and a 220gr "Dead center" bullet made by Precision Rifle Bullet found here
This load can easily print M.O.A. groups or I would stop using it. Now recently, I was impressed by the Shockwave (Hornady) 200gr bullet and may buy some of them to evaluate.

Last year, I had an opportunity to take 3 deer with this load and it was complete and terminal upset...instantly! The year before that, 2 smallish does were milling around about 35yds from my stand for about 30-45 minutes. I had told myself either I get them both or they both walk. Wouldn't you know they lined right up at about 25-30yds and with one pull of the trigger they both piled up. Complete pass through on both and both instantly dead.
I like having the extra power that 150gr can offer and my accuracy isn't suffering. I employ the same logic as the guy that won't deer hunt with the 30-30..."but what if the one walks out at 200yds and all you have is a 30-30?";)
..."well what if the one walks out and all you have is 90gr and a 350gr conical?"[:o][:@]

RE: Who finds good accuracy at 150gr
 

If you want to try new combos for fun and sport great, but I shoot 90 gr 777 with a 348 gr powerbelt aerotip and get 3" at 100 yards. I guarantee you that combo will have devestating performance on any deer that walks the earth and will be plenty for an elk. When I get up to 110 gr 777 with this bullet, the recoil starts effecting my accuracy. Also, with my bullet 2" high at 50 yards, it is dead on at 100. So the trajectory isn't a problem for distances beyond where you are now.

However, the other side of the coin is that if you use a smaller bullet, you HAVE to make it fly faster to get the same results as the bigger bullet.

Remember, for muzzleloaders, foot lb calculations don't cut it. Look at the Taylor index to judge the killing power of muzzleloaders: http://www.loadammo.com/Topics/July02.htm

I realize I am not helping to answer your question, and I hope others with experience do, just wanted to challange your assumption that you need more powder to get good terminal results.

Good luck with your experimentation.

RE: Who finds good accuracy at 150gr
 

The only problem with the Taylor index is that it does not take into account bullet design, but assumes that all loads are FMJ design. I dont feel that a 30-06 w/ 180gr bullet is marginal on Elk, but according to the Taylor index it is. Taylor must not be taking bullet design into account.[:o]

RE: Who finds good accuracy at 150gr
 

I agree, I think this formula is best applied to big bore guns and hard bullets that don't expand much.

I shot one particular deer with a .30/06, 150 gr pointed soft point, right through the ribs, hitting the offside shoulder. This deer lurched and piled up. Another deer I shot with a 45/70, basically the same range and almost exactly the same shot placement. That 400 grain bullet just whistled on through. The deer ran off, and went almost 100 yds. It was easy enough to find thanks to a good blood trail, but it just proves the point about bullet design.

To look at it another way, Taylor wouldn't have developed his formula if all they were after was deer. You have to get up to elk size critters before any of it applies. Also, everything I have heard is that African game is tougher to kill than similarly sized North American game.

RE: Who finds good accuracy at 150gr
 

I am not too big on the taylor index. I have looked it over for years. It is missing key pieces to the puzzle, like hydrostatic shock. A dominated killing piece of the puzzle. All I can do is talk of experience. I can't say I have killed alot of animals with muzzleloader. Only about 12 or so. But i have butchered dozens. A muzzleloader does not kill as effective as a 30-06, I don't think you are going to find too many experienced people to say different. Sure, you have another .15" of an inch of killing diameter, but that only goes so far.

RE: Who finds good accuracy at 150gr
 

Txhunter, maybe its dumb bad luck. I have had bad experiences shooting over 60 yards with muzzleloaders. So now I am stuck with this mindset that 60yards is my limit. I have let a lot of animals go due to this rule.

But with a 12Ga copper solid, I will still sling a 1oz slug 100 yards. So I wanted to experiment with some higher velocity loads.

I see all these guys killing at 150 yards, and sit here saying, "why doesn't it work for me. I mean the XTP is a good bullet, the SST is a good bullet, the Barnes expander is a good bullet.

RE: Who finds good accuracy at 150gr
 

i tried 3 pellets for awhile. and the first couple shots were ok then the barrel got too warm and shots went all over the place. i found i have much better accuracy with 100 grains of powder. also i don't plan on shooting at anything much over 130 yards. also being kinda cheap i like the fact that i can shoot more with less powder. i used 3 pellets until several people told me to use 100, well i thought they were wrong and being bullheaded i held my own little experiment. i went out one morning about 830 and target shot my muzzleloader. the first shot i saw powder burning in the grass. (shot in the shade) so from that moment on i dropped the charge and went to 100 grains of powder.

RE: Who finds good accuracy at 150gr
 

I dissagree, it has nothing to do with bullet design. The Taylor index will give you the same results regardless of bullet design as long as the bullets are shaped the same. The only problem with the Taylor index is that it doesn't work for smaller bullets moving much faster just like foot lbs doesn't work for bigger, slower bullets. In other words, ft lbs is the best thing to look at when looking at a 30-06. Of course the 30-06 is PLENTY of gun to kill deer/elk. No question about that. However, if you plug in the values for a 348 grain projectivle at muzzleloader velocitys for foot lbs, you will believe it is a marginal gun for deer/elk, and I guarantee you that it is plenty of bullet/energy.

My conclusion: use ft lbs to compare small, fast moving bullets and use the Taylor index to compare big, slow moving bullets. Don't compare my muzzy to a 30-06 using either single scale.

Bigcountry said: But with a 12Ga copper solid, I will still sling a 1oz slug 100 yards. So I wanted to experiment with some higher velocity loads.

Your 12 gauge is a LOW VELOCITY load. I bet if you compare your 12 gauge slug to the combo I am using, my ballistics and terminal performance would equal or beat your shotgun.

Bigcountry also said: Only about 12 or so. But i have butchered dozens. A muzzleloader does not kill as effective as a 30-06, I don't think you are going to find too many experienced people to say different

How many have you butchered that were not shot with a sabot, which by design must fly faster to get the same results? In other words, how many have you butchered shot with a 350 or bigger slug? I bet I can find a lot of experience people who shoot bigger slugs to say different.

Bottom line is that it is a difference in philosophy. I am shooting a "primative" weapon that served our forefathers very well by shooting big solid slugs, not small sabots. The gun is by design supposed to shoot big solids. If you want to shoot sabots, great and power to you, and you may need to jack up the powder charge, but don't say that you have to use sabots and 150 gr powder for good terminal results, cause it just ain't so.

Sorry to stay off the question, but this is a good discussion.

RE: Who finds good accuracy at 150gr
 

Well, I used Conicals for over a decade before using sabots on about 4 deer approx. T/C maxihunter to be precise with 90gr Goex. After examining the wounds compared to that of a 270win and 30-06, the maxihunter was totally different. With the maxihunters, I see two rather large wounds with swelling and trauma about 3" round the wound. All vital organs are in tact, and no trauma to any of them.

With a 270win or 30-06, 90% of the time, I see the lungs melted. Severe trama to the heart, pancreas, everything. And usually a smaller exit hole (compared to maxihunter). when shot thru both lungs, never do I see one travel more than 50 yards, and that was only twice.

There is two schools of thought here. One likes the Jeff Cooper big slow moving projectile with little or no shock, and the other is fast, tough bullets, causing severe hydrostatic trauma. Both do work. And we sure won't settle this dicussion here as its been ongoing for a long time. All I can say is I trust my own experience. As you probably do yours.

RE: Who finds good accuracy at 150gr
 

I don't dissagree with anything you said. Hope you find the combo that works best for you.

I am curious though why you think it is ok to shoot a 12 gauge slug to 100 yards. That goes against your argument and philosophy because there really isn't a difference in that and my set up.

No, a muzzy loaded like mine doesn't kill like a 30-06, just like an arrow doesn't kill like a bullet. I choose to shoot a very effective load from my muzzy, but I choose not to try and make it into a 30-06.

There ain't no BEST. What works for you and gives you confidence is what is best for you. Good hunting.

RE: Who finds good accuracy at 150gr
 

bigcountry,
I dropped shooting the 12ga about 3 years ago and have taken up with a 20ga for sabot slugs. Using the newer faster loads, I feel you get better performance that the 12ga ever could offer. This is base on the same argument as the ML'er debate.
The smaller, faster 20ga sabotted slug has better B.C., with further downrange possibilities. Killed 4 deer last year with my 20ga loaded with those new Rem Copper solids. Longest shot was about 85 yards. Shot through the front shoulder, heart and lung. Passed through the other side after hitting a rib. Deer came 20yds right to me and expired. Can't imagine going back to a 12ga as these results are great for me. The other 3 deer just piled up after the gun went "BANG".

RE: Who finds good accuracy at 150gr
 

Because with the 12Ga, I get almost 1500ft/lbs of energy at 100 yards with a much larger diameter bullet, and if a broadside shot, I get a passthru with more damage, from my butchering. With your combo, you will get about 1200ft/lbs. Your right, your combo has alot more downrange energy than my 95gr pyrodex/240gr XTP that has a mere 800ft/lbs. Hey, I might try it. Confience is key here. Right now, with my failures at 100 yards, my confidense is low. You have had alot of success, so yours is high as mine is with a 12Ga. And confidense is half the battle.

mlaub, All the people I know in Ohio also use 20Ga. They seem to like it better than the 12ga. They might have something.

RE: Who finds good accuracy at 150gr
 

I would be curious what your 12 gauge set up would score on the Taylor index. Do you know the numbers to plug in? As I said earlier, I don't look at ft/lbs with muzzloaders. 1200 ft/lbs residual energy with a 30-06 would not be enough energy for me to feel comfortable shooting an elk, however, I have no reservations about my muzzy load. Smaller bullets need to be flying much faster to do their thing.

Actually, my set up gives me about 1350 ft/lbs at 100 yards according to my chronometer averege muzzle speed of 1600 ft/sec. But again, that doesn't mean anything to me.

RE: Who finds good accuracy at 150gr
 

txhunter58,
Here are the numbers for the 20ga load...
Rem Copper Solid
273.4gr bullet (5/8 oz)
MV=1500fps, @ 100yds=1240
ME=1440fp, @ 100yds=986

RE: Who finds good accuracy at 150gr
 

Should be a Taylor index value of about "30" at 100 yards which should be good up to elk size animals. If you look at just the ft/lbs, you would think it was just a marginal load even for deer. Interesting.

Looking at the ballistics charts on the Remington site seems to indicate that the 12 gauge is supierior to the 20 gauge. It looks to me that the bullet design has a lot to do with the good terminal performance you both have been getting. With a bullet that opens up and retains most of its weight, that should add some devestating results. I am curious if the industry will continue to improve the muzzy solids to include better controlled expansion. We will see.

Bigcountry: if you aren't familiar with this website: http://www.monstermuleys.com/ you might check it out and see if any guys on there are using the higher powder loads.

RE: Who finds good accuracy at 150gr
 

Thanks for the Taylor index URL I enjoyed it. I am not an expert by any stretch of the imagination but here is my 2 cents. First none of the calculations mean much if there is a pass through because you don’t know how much energy the bullet still has after it exits. Seems to me the stopping or dropping power has more to do with how the bullet enters the animal. I am lucky to have a set up where 9 out ten shots are 100% broadside. This said, if the bullet hits square on a rib the rib explodes and the lung and heart damage is tremendous. The shoulder hit shatters bone early and drops them in their tracks, actually I think it jolts the spine and paralyzes the deer. The bullet has a sphere of energy around it like a shock wave that is an area volume calculation thus the squared function. Had a 270 pass through a 200 lb buck last year just above the heart, never hit any bones and the destruction removed the heart from the connecting arteries and tissue and left the lungs pretty much in tact. Much less damage than a rib bone hit. He went @ 250 yards, I was amazed how far he went. But I guess most of the available shocking energy stayed with the bullet after it exited. After a rib hit the lungs and most of the heart disintegrate. I only remember my 150 gr 270 staying in the deer once. Well the bullet took a left turn inside the deer after a broadside lung shot and wound up in the far side haunch. That one was weird to figure out, in through one rib then out the other side rib cage and back 8 inches or so slid along the skin and came back across the rear guts and stopped in the haunch on the same side as the entrance wound. I mention this because the energy left after the second rib cage penetration was quite a bit. Back to the member who dropped two does, one shot, with pass throughs on both, lots of energy after the first deer hit!!

RE: Who finds good accuracy at 150gr
 

12Ga slug
3" remington copper solids
1 oz wieght
1550fps MV
2331ft/lbs ME

@100 yards
1100fps
1597ft/lbs

If you think conservativly saying a copper solid is .6" diameter thats around TI=41.1. Not bad.

Lets do another one I have used.
remington corlok ultra
385grwieght
1900fps MV
3086ft/lbs ME

@100 yards
1648fps
2325ft/lbs

TI is 54

This is the reason I and many, many other experienced shooters have poked holes in this theory. The guy puts the dominating factor in the equation on bullet diameter and doesn't take in any effect on hydrostatic trauma. As a engineer, I don't understand this. Why did he put it there with no scaling factor. What bases is it there for. Hey the guy stuck it in the equation to get a finite number. Where the energy equation's dominating effect is velocity, and doesn't take in any effect of bullet diameter and definately not bullet construction. BUT, it is accurate and undisputed scientific equation. I know one thing for fact, I mean fact (in my head), at 100 yards, I could drop a deer like a hammer with a 30-06 compared to a 12ga slug or 50cal muzzleloader. Hands down, no comparison. I also believe, that a 12ga slug or 50cal muzzleloader would at close range, outpenetrate hands down a 30-06 in a huge animal.


For that reason, both the energy equation and the TI is both seriously flawed for using concrete numbers to say "this gun is adequate for tryanisouris or whatever". All I and all you reading can go on is personal experience and use these numbers loosely for a guideline. Classic example is the 45ACP and 357Sig.

RE: Who finds good accuracy at 150gr
 

Hey tx,
Thanks for the link...interesting reading.:)
You can never get too much information. This is a classic example of the more I know the dumber I feel:D
Good Luck and Good Hunting!

RE: Who finds good accuracy at 150gr
 

You are absolutely right bigcountry. There is no "equation" that will give you the definative "knock down" power. Both are just useful tools for comparison. Again it comes down to the fact that big, slow moving bullets kill in a different way than small fast bullets. You will get no argument from me that the small,fast bullet may be the best tool for putting game down. It certainly is superior to a broadhead. But an elk shot with my setup will be just as dead, no question about that. Maybe he will run a few more yards, but I am having to be a better hunter to get close enough to game to shoot with a muzzy and I may have to be a better tracker to find him, just as I would with a bow and arrow.

If I want 30-06 results and ranges, I hunt seasons that allow me to use a 30-06. These are my limitations put on me by myself, you do what you want.

By the way, I measured my 20 and 12 gauge and the internal diameter of the 20 was .625 and the 12 was almost .75. Really big bores!

RE: Who finds good accuracy at 150gr
 

Wow, that would mean a 12Ga slug has a TI much higher than I predicted. Guess thats why people use them for bear backup.

Well, anyway, it was a good discussion. I have a feeling I will not be able to shoot 150gr loads. Haven't tried it yet. Don't know too many people that has gotten good accuacy with the full house loads. I figure it will be around 130gr loads. I tried 777 when it first came out with No11 percussion caps, and it fouled my nipple so bad, I had to take it apart and cleaned wthin 5 rounds. Has anything changed with it? Figured the slower 777 would work better with my new 26" barrel. Thought maybe the 209primer will keep the thing from fouling the breech plug. I also have tried the powerbelts several times with my wolverine with no luck. Going to try 300gr SST's first then all the rest.

RE: Who finds good accuracy at 150gr
 

I have fired as many as 18 shots through my Omega with 209 primers and 777 with no problem with fouling.

RE: Who finds good accuracy at 150gr
 

By the way, I was surprised to see that the 12 gauge 1 oz solid kicked my muzzy load in the butt on the Taylor Index. Of course, it is due to the bullet diameter, which is weighted much heavier in this equation. No wonder you have seen good results with this load.

RE: Who finds good accuracy at 150gr
 

Hey bigcountry,
Have you given these a try yet?
I am looking to test these out before the season!

RE: Who finds good accuracy at 150gr
 

mlaub, are you taking about the dead center bullet? I have never tried them. I like the looks and BC of the SST's. I am still trying to figure out thesee precision "dead center" bullets. I am all about extending my ranges in Black Water refuge for Sika deer. I see those critters out there 200 yards, but wouldn't attempt a shot with ML or Slug.

RE: Who finds good accuracy at 150gr
 

With 250g barnes MZ, my disc rifle shoots 1'' groups. 300g barnes, sst, knight jacketed soft points and 310 lead hollow points tend to all shoot into 3'' or so. When I shoot these same bullets with 100 grains (pyrodex pellets), they all shoot a little better. My sense is its just like working up handloads for a rifle--you need to find the right combo. I've used the 250g barnes on mule deer and antelope out to 219 yards. I've never recovered a bullet and performance has been deadly--they simply drop. For elk, I use the 300 grain barnes of jsp and put up with a little less accuracy.

RE: Who finds good accuracy at 150gr
 

bc,
I really like those "Dead Center" bullets from Precision Rifle Bullet and their web site is loaded with great technical information. You can order from them directly, but only in bulk. I think 50 bullets is the minimum order. You should really stop by their site and read all the stuff about all their testing they have done with different bullets on different game animals. It is really good info:)

RE: Who finds good accuracy at 150gr
 

mlaub, you wouldn't sell me 10 or 12 would ya. I would hate to buy a whole bulk of em and not shoot for me.

By the way, this is formerly bigcountry. Login screwed up. I work here near BWI.

Results
 

Well, I took my new Disc Elite out this weekend. Got amazing accuracy at 100 yards with my old tried and trued load of 95gr of Pyrodex and 240gr XTP's. Around 1.5" groups twice. But tried a few combos with the 250gr SST's, and they didn't work out.

Tried both 120gr, and 150gr of Pyrdex loose powder, and got 4" groups with SST's. Lots of combos left to try with high velocity loads.

RE: Who finds good accuracy at 150gr
 

Personally, I find that more times than not people get too "into the numbers" and begin to to forget the fact that no matter how much energy any projectile may have when it makes contact with an animal, placement of the projectile as close to the vital areas as possible, will have more impact on how quickly the animal is put down than how much energy the projectile possesses. Energy transfer will also be relative to projectile composition when we start looking at potential energies. You could have a projectile with 1 million ft/lbs of potential energy, but, if the projectile is incapable of releasing it, you have less trauma resulting than if it could. Example..the millitary's use of steel core 5.56 nato ss109 62gr. steel-core penetrators, as opposed to a 62gr, lead core, soft or hollow points. One is designed to NOT expand (release it energy) and the other is...that is why they are outlawed for combat because they will do more damage even though they both have very similar if not the same potential energy. Accuracy is more important to me than how much power my setup my have. But, I will also logically choose an appropriate round for my quarry. Which would be ANY legal round for use in my area. All calibers and setups have killed deer (in my case) including .22LR! Heck, many of the native peoples in the eastern Canadian Provinces regularly use the .30-30win to take moose...it all boils down to how profficient one is with their weapon.

RE: Results
 

Take into account that in most cases you may not see a complete powder burn when using 150gr charges. The length of your barrel will contribute more to the potential accuracy of 150gr loads. Most of the first 150gr capable inlines had barrels too short to accomodate (20-22"). Now more and more inlines are going towards the 26" and 28" barrels. A good test to see if you are getting a complete as possible burn is to shoot a round at white paper set about 10-15 yards from the muzzle and fire a round at it. If you see burn marks or even loose grains...that is a sign of wasted powder. I tried shooting 150 grains out of my old TC Black Diamond XR (26"bbl) and noticed 150 grains and a 300gr projectile didn't have much difference in velocity or downrange capability than a 300gr projectile and 100grains of powder. Of course every one is different, but, I would rather make better use of my money than shoot 150grains of powder. The powder I used was Hodgdon Triple 7 FFG. Having said that I am going to a TC Omega (with a 28" bble) to help increase my velocity and down range performance this year over that of the Black Diamond.

RE: Who finds good accuracy at 150gr
 

I DO NOT promote the use of the .22LR for deer or anything more than small game..just wanted to clarify that

RE: Who finds good accuracy at 150gr
 

WhackAbuck, that is how this thread started if you read back. I limit myself to 50 yards with 95gr of pyrdex. And want to increase it. See what I am saying. I mean lets say you have no problem bringing home 6-10 deer a year. And you love to shoot, and play around. Nothing wrong with playing with the numbers. Its gives you purpose and drive to go to the range number one. And more time you spend shooting, more fimiluar you are with your guns. All good stuff.