trajectory, velocity, and energy 90grains
 

Hello.....I shoot a Thompson Black Diamond .50 cal with a Leupold M8 2.5X28 scope. I use 90 grains Pyrodex RS and a 260 gr Winchester platinum tip saboted bullet. This is the best load I have found for "my" gun. It's sighted in an 1 3/4" low at 100 yards, puts me 2 1/2" high at 50 yards and dead on at 25 yards. I have shot numerous bullets and loads through this gun and settled on this. This particular load gives me very consistant groups at these ranges. I was wondering, what the energy would be with only 90 grains of powder at 100 yards. As far as I'm concerned the 150 grain magnum loads don't show me anytihng in accuracy. If I want to place a shot through a small opening at 50 yards, I lack the confidence using the 150 grain charge. I just worry whether or not 90 grains is enough powder to take down a deer at say 150 yards or beyond. I took two deer with the 90 grain load during the Massachusetts Black Powder season but both shots were around 50 yards. I wasn't sure if anyone had info on a similar load out beyond 100 yards. Thanks a lot.......John

RE: trajectory, velocity, and energy 90grains
 

http://www.ladedaten.info/pulver/pyrodex.php3
Pace Maker this link should help copy @ paste

RE: trajectory, velocity, and energy 90grains
 

I also shoot a Black Diamond XR. I am shooting the T/C Shockwave 250 grain .44 caliber projectile with 100 grains of Pyrodex. According to the charts, a 250 grain SST/ML (which are similar to the ones you are shooting) being pushed by 2 pyrodex pellets on that projectile, the Muzzle Velocity (fps) would be around 1890 and still around 1284 at 200 yards. The Energy (ft-lbs) at the muzzle show 1983 and still around 925 (ft-lbs) at 200 yards which is well above the 800 (ft-lbs) many people claim necessary to make a clean kill.

I am also working up a load with the 300 grain .45 caliber Hornady XTP's but they load very hard in the rifle. Another projectile that loads nice and shoots fantastic are the Precision Bullet .45 caliber 300 grain Silver Lightening Poly Tip (green tips out of a black high pressure Harvester Sabot). Their only draw back is the cost.

So if I were you, I would go ahead and shoot the 90 grains. This load should be fine out to even 150 yards. Bullet placement is most important as we all know, so use the most accurate load. Hope this helped:)

RE: trajectory, velocity, and energy 90grains
 

Thanks for the replies. I'm new to this forum but I'm hooked on muzzleloaders. I have a custom made Gonic model 93 .50cal which is suppose to drive tacks but I haven't even come close to finding a consitant load for that gun. I've had the gun for several years but have yet to hunt with it because I have no confidence in it. They recommend shooting a 435gr hp penetrator bullet. with a 150gr charge. I've dropped the load from 150 to 90 and still haven't consistantly grouped. Gonic recommends using their bullet in their gun but it's time to start trying for other bullets. I take the Thompson Black Diamond out of the cabinet and every year it's right on. I'm always interested in ballistics with these guns. It's hard to find a lot of info on the net about it. Maybe I'm just searching the wrong places. Two of my friends are shooting the Savage 10ML with the smokeless, but I'm not over impressed with the performance. It's certainly no better than the Thompson. Thanks for the replies again. Have a good one.........John

RE: trajectory, velocity, and energy 90grains
 

John you may want to try the 250 sst or shockwave bullet and 100 grs of pyro in the gonic or even the 300 gr.I have shot them in all my muzzleloaders with very good results.I have a knight,ruger,2 encores and a savage.
Maybe you wasn't impressed with the savage is because your buddies hadn't worked out a good load for it.I have one of them and very impressed with it.Below is a 5-shot group I shot the other day with the savage@100 yds.using the 250 shockwave bullets.

RE: trajectory, velocity, and energy 90grains
 

Thanks Herman...........I'll be sure to pass that info along to my friends with the savage. If it's not imposing, when you have time, could you let me know the powder and charge you were using in that savage? That's a nice group. I'll also try those bullets in the Gonic. Thanks for the reply.

RE: trajectory, velocity, and energy 90grains
 

It was 44.5 grs of N110 and the shockwave 250 and win primer.Tell them it is like any other muzzleloader that it has to find the best load it will handle.My encore 50 cal,ruger,and knight disk will shoot groups like this too but it took a lot of shooting to find out what each one liked the best.My encore 45 cal have had for 2 years now,on my second barrel and haven't found anything it likes yet.
Good luck on the sst's or shockwaves.

RE: trajectory, velocity, and energy 90grains
 

John you are really limiting yourself with that bullet and load. You are correct about not needing 150 grains to do the job. If you want a bullet that will do the job accuarately out to 200 yards and more. Go with Precision Rifle bullets. See more info a bpbullets.com. You will be impressed but the deer will hate it. I am talking 2 and 1/2 inch groups at 200 yards using 100 grains of 777 loose powder and still able to cleanly kill a caribou. I have videos on my site of caribou and a 270 lbs Russian boar being shot with these bullets at over 100 yards. See it for yourself.

ray

RE: trajectory, velocity, and energy 90grains
 

HI FELLAS; WHEN I WAS ON ONE of the OTHER SITES WE HAD A GUY SAY.

(Somebodies been reading to many ads! If you can make clean consistent kills at that
range and/or put the rounds consistently in the kill zone at 300 yards, I will buy you the
inline of your choice! If you think you can do this,)
When I started to make an offer to take him up on it. he started hedging.

So my question to you guys is can it be done? I say in can be done
Gunsite

RE: trajectory, velocity, and energy 90grains
 

Gunsite, I am sure there are rifles out there and people out there that can make a muzzleloader shoot and consistantly hit at 300 yards. The question to me is not, can someone shoot 300 yards and hit the kill zone every time? It is more to the point of, should they be shooting a muzzleloader 300 yards at animals?

I think a lot of people have taken the abilities of the muzzleloader now and pushed them to the limit. 300 yards is a long distance even for a lot of people with center fire rifles. All it takes is to be a little off and you have a wounded animal. Animals unlike paper targets do not stand still or present a perfect broadside shot all the time. Any little thing can make the bullet hit off its mark even a little. By the time it has travelled that far, how much energy does the projectile really have anymore? Would that animal be dispatched in a good clean manner?

I would have a real hard time with people who tell me they shot this deer at 280 yards with a muzzleloader. My first thought is, that is a long way to shoot a powder gun, and my second thought (no matter how good a shot they are) is that person was lucky they did not end up wounding a deer. I really think it is up to the hunter to know the LIMITS of their rifle and themselves. After all, if I can hit a deer at 280 yards then why not shoot at that monster buck at 350 yards.. and so on.

I admit I fell into the long distance trap of muzzleloader shooting. For 25 years I hunted with a sidelock. My longest shot was 80+ yards. I started hunting with a muzzleloader because the center fires lost their appeal. With the CF the deer walked out into the field unaware I was even close, I took the 7mm mag and shot, then went home. Now here I am with two in-lines working loads up to see what is the best one for 100 and even 150 yards.

All I have to say to the people that shoot extreme distances with a muzzleloader is good luck, hope it was a clean hit and the animal went right down because other wise you better be a good tracker.....

RE: trajectory, velocity, and energy 90grains
 

For muzzleloader ballistics and which bullets shoot best with different rates of twist see bpbullets.com

What rate of twist is your Gonic? Knowing that will help you find the propper range of bullets to try.

RE: trajectory, velocity, and energy 90grains
 

I have to agree with gunsite on this one. Sure there are bullets that will retain their energy out to 300 yards enough to kill a deer. It is true that with certain bullets and loads a 2 and 1/2 inch group is attainable at 200 yards. The problem is there are many factors that come into play here. Not the least of which, most people have never even tried to see how their gun and load react at a range beyond 150 yards. Even for those that know exactly how much kinetic energy and drop their shot will have at a range beyond 200 yards, there is still wind drift, absense of a bench rest, and the target might move or be moving. Yes there are bullets and guns capable, but even in the best of siituations a shot of over 200 yards to be ethically taken, requires much more than the average hunter has aquired. I hate myself for admitting this for obvious reasons. But, remember it wasn't long ago that a 100 yard shot was a bit risky, yet now, a 150 yard shot is well within most peoples grasp, given the right bullet, load, practice, circumstances and rifle.

RE: trajectory, velocity, and energy 90grains
 

The rate of twist in my Gonic is 1:24. I'll check out the info on that link. Thanks a lot for the replies.

RE: trajectory, velocity, and energy 90grains
 

bpbullets.........Now I'm going to turn the tables 180 degrees. I live in Massachusetts, down by Cape Cod. We hunt small pieces of land sometimes only a few acres. Most of the shots I get with the muzzleloader are well within 50 yards and most around 25 yards. We have thick, thick, thick briars and wetland vegitation. Do you think a heavier bullet (heavier than the 260gr I'm shooting in my TC) is better for shooting in the brush? I worry about bullet deflection with the lighter bullet. Where I hunt most of the time it's virtually impossible to get a wide open, clear shot. It's hard to find the right bullet to hunt this area. It's possible to get a shot on a powerline or a cranberry bog over 100 yards. It's like you either have to give up distance, or give up being able to shoot through the briars. My original thought on hunting here was to shoot the heaviest bullet I could. But I never had very accurate groups. With this 260 grain Winchester I'm happy with the groups I'm getting
(In the TC). Trying to find a happy medium. I have a hard time going in the woods with a gun shooting 2 - 3" groups at 50 yards because I'm shooting a super heavy bullet. Hunting Mass, like I'm sure many states, it's very diverse. You can hunt open oaks in the Berkshires, briar patches around my house or scrub oaks on the Islands, I hunt them all. Just thought I'd ask your opinion on this. My original post was because I was wondering how far these guns can shoot with the ability to effectively take down game. I'm sure I'll be ordering some bullets from the link you sent. I know a lot of this is trial and error, but I thought maybe you or someone else could give me some imput. Thanks A lot.........John

RE: trajectory, velocity, and energy 90grains
 

Pace Maker, since your shots are similar to mine in Northern Wisconsin, I would suggest a conical or a heavy PowerBelt. I shoot 370 grain Maxi Balls out of my T/C Black Diamond XR with great accuracy. Shot placement will do most of the work for you. I was shooting some 348 grain aero tip powerbelts out of my Staghorn and they shot fantastic. The main point was not to over charge the projectiles. 90 grains was the perfect load.

RE: trajectory, velocity, and energy 90grains
 

Thanks for the reply. I'll give it a try and see what I come up with. Plenty of time for practice from now till the next deer season, that's for sure. A little warmer weather is needed before I head to the range though.........John