Savage 10MLBSSII
 

Hey guys,

I plan on getting into muzzleloading next season and I've been thinking about a T/C Omega or Savage 10ML. Just wondering if anyone has the 10ML? If so, what are your thoughts on it? I'm not too worried about price as I'm a believer in "you get what you pay for". I know I'll enjoy the sport and am looking for a long term investment. However, I also feel that the T/C encore is just too over priced. Also, are there any clear advantages to smokeless powder and is Savage the only company that shoots smokeless powder? Any thoughts, fact or oppinion, would be appreciated.

Thank you for your help:)

RE: Savage 10MLBSSII
 

This is just my opinion; Savage 10ML I am sure is an excellent rifle. I have read some good reviews about it. Perhaps the ability to use smokeless powder is an advantage, I don't see it that way. Since the Savage will shoot conventional black powder and substitutes your only advantage over a T/C Omega is the ability to use the smokles powder. I don't think if you compared them accuracy wise there would be any difference (again, my opinion).

I have no idea about how Savage's customer support or customer service department is or their warranty. I would "guess" it is good. I do know that Thompson Center stands behind their product excellent, and are more then willing to help with any problem you might have with their rifles.

I am sure that both rifles are excellent. Price wise might be a difference, I have not checked. I just ordered the T/C Black Diamond XR, which as I was explained has the same barrel as the Omega. The difference is they are on sale at Cabela's for $229.00. I will use the money I save on this rifle to get a nice scope if the one I currently have is not what I want, and to get the extra stuff that inlines need. I currently have four other sidelocks, so getting into the world if the inline is a new experience for me. The information I was given in the message boards was of great value.

Which ever rifle you pick, welcome to the world of black powder. Believe me, it gets in your blood and you are hooked. This makes hunting a whole new experience. :D

RE: Savage 10MLBSSII
 

Thanks Cayugad. I certainly appreciatiate your input. Since I'm not looking to purchase an ML right away, I'll continue to research and find out more. Investing in a quality scope will be the next task.

Thanks
Bn'R

RE: Savage 10MLBSSII
 

There are huge advantages to smokeless powder: lower cost per shot, less recoil for the same velocity, and no corrosive fouling.

I enjoy my Encore, like my Knight Elite, and several other muzzleloaders-- but the Savage is on a level all its own, particularly now with its Accu-Trigger model.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/instant_slamification.htm

RE: Savage 10MLBSSII
 

Thanks Randy,

Any other advice to offer? If not, it's just going to be the matter of finding the best price:)

Bn'R

RE: Savage 10MLBSSII
 

I have ruger,knight,T/C and savage muzzleloaders,and all will shoot 1 inch and less,the savage with either powder.So you can shoot either in the savage.I would get which ever one you are more comfortable shooting.
Not just a few but many of the fellows I talk to are shooting the smokeless in their muzzleloaders,after manufactors telling them that it is unsafe.I think they are taking unnessary chances,which I am up in years and want to hunt a few more years so I don't take that kind of chances.Point is if you have any thoughts on shooting the smokeless I would go with the Savage,you wouldn't have to worry everytime you pulled the trigger if it was going to blow up in your face.
Good luck in what ever you choose and have fun shooting.

RE: Savage 10MLBSSII
 

I'm sure the savage is a very fine strong rifle, it just doesn't trip my trigger. The biggest negative is you souldn't try loading smockless by volume. This means you will have to premeasure a lot of charges or take your scale with you to the range. I find it simpler to use a more traditional powder or replacement. As for the velocity, I didn't fall in love with muzzleloading because the bullets were fast. I like the challenge of one shot, questioning whether the thing will fire and having to get up close.

RE: Savage 10MLBSSII
 

45Hawken,
Why shouldn't you measure smokeless powder by volume? I reload standard cartridges and use a powder measure (volume) all the time, unless I'm going for extreme accuracy. When I measure by weight, I still start by volume, then check each load by weight/scales. It is only off by tenths of one grain.

I bet that if you would weigh your black powder charges, that you measured by volume, you would find that they are just as different.

I would go with the Savage simply for the ease of cleaning with the smokeless powder.

MH

RE: Savage 10MLBSSII
 

Mainehunt,

I hear what you're saying. Although, there will always be something to clean, I really like the fact of smokeless powder being less corrosive and from what I'm hearing much easier to clean. All of my guns are pretty well kept. If I can find a way to make my job a bit easier then I'll give it a try. Heck, why spend anymore energy cleaning than necessary? Save it for the hunt;)

The fact is, I've been a shotgun hunter for years. If you want a challenge try shooting a whitetail in the Adirondacks or in the foothills with a 12 gauge! I think that the accuracy and range of this in-line will be a nice change.

Once again, I appreciate everyone's input. It's all new to me. Thanks gentlemen

Bn'R

RE: Savage 10MLBSSII
 

The main reason not to measure smokeless by volume is accuracy. If I am using regular black powder or pyrodex and set my powder measure at 100gr I can mistakenly set the measure off one or to gr above or below that figure and not change the pressure placed on my rifle much. Do the same with smokeless setting your measure at 43gr of 4227. If you are off by 2gr of powder you still can have a safe load, but the percentage of change to your charge has been increased or decreaed more than double what the charge for large volume powders is.
I'll admit that there are times it would sure be nice not to have to deal with the hassles that come with traditional powder. My biggest fear is that some fools will get themselves killed. I'm not blaming Savage for the actions of stupid people. My problem is the way some people will interpret the recomended loads for the savage. Take the 43gr of 4227. Savage recommends the max load of black powder for their rifle is 150gr. They also recommend several loads of smokeless. Someone, somewhere will take this info and conclude that these two powders are equal and load a traditional muzzeloader with 43gr 4227. Then their heirs will sue both Savage and Knight, T/C, CVA or whoever. Win or lose, the cost of doing business just went up and my next rifle will cost more.

RE: Savage 10MLBSSII
 

45Hawken,
You are probably right, but there will always be morons like that. Hell, just take the cigarette smokers for instance, they have been told for years that the smoke will give them lung cancer, but they continue to smoke (sometimes in a car with children), then they turn around and sue the cigarette manufacturers. Go figure.

Bucknrut,
I know what you mean about hunting deer with a shotgun. I did it for years in my home state of OHIO. It is a challenge.

RE: Savage 10MLBSSII
 

Lets clear up some misconceptions and myths about the Savage 10ML-II and get some correct info out. I have never shot a T/C Omega so I cannot and will not comment on it. I have, however, fired in the neighborhood of 25,000 rounds through custom built smokeless muzzleloaders and the Savage 10ML's and 10ML-II's.

The Savage 10ML-II, is currently the strongest, safest, most advanced, and most versatle muzzleloader on the market today. Not to mention that it is very user friendly. I can shoot ANY of the blackpowder substitutes, blackpowder. Of Course, it is also the only muzzleloader that can shoot smokeless powders. Now, that (smokeless powders) only will turn many people against the Savage 10ML-II. They firmly belief or rather opinion, that smokeless powder has no place in the world of muzzleloaders. That is fine with me if they that opinion, just don't opinions confused with facts. Fact is, smokeless powder is the original blackpowder substitute. Oh yeah, back in the late 1880's and early 1890's, blackpowder began to give way to the new smokeless powder. Pyrodex didnot come about until around the mid-1970's, Clean-shot until the early 1990's, and Triple 7 until 2003. Even today, smokeless powder is refered to as equivelent to old blackpowder drams in shotgun shells. There is really nothing equivelent between Pyrodex/T-7 and blackpowder, either chemically, composition, or volumetrically wise. You can't load grain for grain, as you have to back off 15% or so when using Pyrodex (even more when using T-7) as compared to blackpowder loads. The only thing they have in common is they all create a large clouds of smoke when fired.

Projectile wise the Savage can and will shoot, bore size conicles or saboted bullets. Some projectiles work better when used with Pyrodex or T-7, some work better with smokeless. Ignition is 209 primer, same as most in-line muzzleloaders sold today. One of the myths the surrounds the 10ML-II is, "a one or two grain overcharge could or will have devasting results". That is 150% pure Bravo Sierra. When shooting smokeless powder and saboted bullets, in the 10ML-II, if a charge is too hot by a grain or two, or even a double charge, upon ignition the gas and pressure will blow the base of the sabot, causing the gas to blow by the sabot, thus reducing the pressures. In other words the sabot if blown by a hot loads, acts as a pressure relief valve. What about conciles and smokeless powder? Savage doesn't recommend bore conicles and smokeless powders, even though I have gotten PowerBelts to give decent results as long as I kept the velocity to 1,600-1,800 FPS. I have not shot any Buffalo or Plains bullets or anything like that in a 10ML or 10ML-II, becasue I saw no need in it. But with Pyrodex, T-7, or Clean-shot, or something like that, that style for bullet should work just fine.


The advantages of shooting smokeless powder are many. Like after 1 shot, 2 shots, 50 shots, or even 100 shots, you can take the 10ML-II home and stick in the safe for a day, a week, a month, or even 6 months, without cleaning it. If you did this to a T/C Omega or any other muzzleloader, you would have one rusted up paperweight. The cost is also much cheaper per shot, on average a 10ML-II cost approximately $.40-$.50 per shot. A T/C Omega, Knight, CVA, etc., with Pyrodex or T-7 pellets could cost as much as $2.00 a shot. At the cost of $25 for a box of 100 pellets at Wally-World you could get as many as 50 shots out of it, but with 1 pound of IMR 4227 or AA 5744, I can get 150+ shots.

Don't be worried about the myth of "having to weigh each and every powder charge". Heck, I weigh about 5% of the loads that I shoot in the 10ML-II. The other 95% of the time I use a Lee Powder Dipper Set, and dip my powder charges. This is a VOLUMNETRIC way of weighing powder. In fact Savage inlcudes the 3 most popular dippers with the 10ML-II, I beleive they are the 2.8cc, 3.1cc, 3.4cc dippers. 45Hawken was right about 1 thing, and that is accuracy. If you want 1" or better groups, then weigh your powder charges, but if 1.25-1.5" groups are fine then use the dippers. The dipper work great either at the range, at the hunt camp, or in the field.

With smokeless the rifle is almost maintenace free. Much less maintenance than your centerfire rifle. By the time you could get a T/C Omega, Knight, or CVA taken aprt for cleaning, you would be through cleaning a 10ML-II. The 10ML-II is also the only muzzleloader with a truely sealed closed breech. You will get zero blow back with the 10ML-II.

RE: Savage 10MLBSSII
 

1shot, are you the same guy who posted about the savage on the NAHC bb? If you are and I remember correctly you designed the original concept of the savageml. If I remember the original model10 used a "for lack of a better discription" fake bullet that held the primer and sealed the breech. Does the newer model use this? If so how long do they last befor needing replaced?

RE: Savage 10MLBSSII
 

45 Hawken, the new model does not have the module like you are talking about. It has a screw in breech plug with a vent liner. I have purchased a new Savage muzzleloader and I am very pleased with it. At the range, the gun performs as well or better than the Omegas, Encores, and knights. The real performance advantage I believe is at long range shooting. I am able to sight in at 100 yards an inch high and hit 6 inches low at 200 yards. That is impressive for a muzzleloader. You cannot do that with Pyrodex. Also I have shot a few hundred rounds in this gun and have never had a misfire. My groups do seem to open up a bit if I do not weigh the powder. I believe that smokeless muzzleloading is the way all muzzleloaders will be in the future. The great thing about this gun is I dont have to clean it imediately after I shoot it. Also, I purchased my stainless/composite 10ml ll for $399. I looked at the Omega and Encore which cost more. I believe this is the only choice. Oh by the way, if you plan on purchasing this gun, do not purchase the one with the scope mouted on it from the factory, the scope is garbage. I have a friend of mine who purchase it and it never keeps its zero. This gun shoots well enough to have a Leupold or Nikon on it. And for all of you shotgun only state hunters, purchase this gun and you can keep your bird barrel on your shotgun all year.:)

RE: Savage 10MLBSSII
 

Thanks 1Shot_1Kill and Gianni,

1Shot, I sent you an e-mail with some questions. Let me know if you got it when you get a chance.

Thanks again all,

Bn'R

RE: Savage 10MLBSSII
 

45Hawken, That is me:). The "fake bullet" of the orginal 10Ml, is called a percussion module, that carries the 209 primer and the tapered nose of it mates tightly to the taper inside the chamber in the breach plug. This created the gas tight seal. The newer 10ML-II, does not use the "percussion module", but has a 209 primer holder on the bolt face. Upon firing the 209 primer swells in the 209 primer chamber and creates a gas tight seal. This works extremely well. If I had my choice I would opt for the 10ML with the percussion modules, but Savage have not made any sicne 2001, and will not be making that model anymore. A percussion module, if fitted the way ot supposed to, should last approximately 300+ shots each.

Bucknrut17, I got it and sent youa response.

RE: Savage 10MLBSSII
 

After reasing Mr. Wakeman's articles on the Savage 10ML-II on Chuck Hawk's website, I'll have to say he's made me a believer.

At first I was one of the sceptics who shook his head in disbelief when Savage announced the 10ML. My first thought was that the first thing some idiot would do was take his black powder measure and dump 100 grains by volume of N110 down the barrel and blow himself and anyone nearby straight to kingdom come. I guess maybe I was probably selling people short, but there is always someone. With black and subs it'd be really hard to accidently overcharge the gun to the point of catastrophic failure. Black powder just doesn't make that much pressure. But smokeless surely can.

But reading through Mr. Wakeman's article I was surprized to read that the 10ML-II is PROOFED to 129,000psi (yes that's 129 THOUSAND...no typo). 129,000psi is over twice the max pressure of most high intensity magnum centerfire cartridges. Basically, the 10ML is built like a the proverbial brick ****house. Reading that also made me think about the fact that I had no idea what pressure my Knight or T/C barrels are proofed to, and I don't even think my Traditions was proof rated at all.

I was also pleasantly surprised that Savage makes all the 10ML barrels to the same specs and tolerances of their well regarded centerfire barrels. I know for a fact that all three of my muzzleloaders have different diameter barrels, both at the lands and grooves...there's just no standardization to muzzleloaders. At least Savage is trying.

I also never thought about smokeless in terms of it being safer. It's also more economical. Most of the smokeless loads listed use less than 50grains of powder...most people shoot 100+ of black or equiv. Less powder also means less ejecta, meaning less stuff gets blown out the front, so the less the rifle trys to make you pay for making it earn its keep. Higher velocities partially cancel this out, but I still think it'd make a difference, especially if one doesn't load the thing screaming hot all the time.

And then there's cleanup...the most dreaded part of shooting a muzzleloader. But with smokeless there is little concern about having the barrel pitted out if you get home from the range late and don't want to stay up to clean it...or if you want to hunt on a fouled barrel for best accuracy. Speaking of fouling...there would be no more need to bring a bag full of patches to the range to spit patch the crud ring out of the bore every other shot so that one can get the next bullet seated properly.

I don't know about the rest of you...but I'm saving for a 10ML-II. Maybe shooting smokeless powder will reignite (pardon the pun) my passion for muzzleloading. I love to shoot the things, but I hate the pain cleaning them. The Savage would be as easy to clean as my 22-250 (which is clean before I leave the range, most of the time...in less than 5 minutes).

Mike

RE: Savage 10MLBSSII
 

That's good stuff driftrider!

You've obviously read up on the 10ML II quite a bit. Thanks for the info. I don't know what you like specifically, but have you seen the 10MLBSS II (wood laminate w/ the stainless steel barrel)? A beautiful piece of art if I do say so myself. Of course it's a bit higher in price.


Happy Holidays;)
Bn'R

RE: Savage 10MLBSSII
 

Since I've always been one to give credit where credit is due, you should give most of your thanks to Randy Wakeman. He's done quite a bit of testing with countless different muzzleloaders and holds the Savage in high regard. If you want to read up on the Savage 10ML try the following links (they are where I got most of my info from):

http://www.chuckhawks.com/instant_slamification.htm

http://www.chuckhawks.com/savage_ML10.htm

http://www.chuckhawks.com/savage_10MLII_accutrigger.htm

http://www.chuckhawks.com/savage_ML_FAQ.htm

Mike

RE: Savage 10MLBSSII
 

Went to the range Monday to recheck out my savage for a upcoming hog hunt and this is the 5-shot group I got @100 yds,had a 1.320 group ( 3-shot) 5in low at 200 yds.I am sure Toby and 1-shot have had tighter groups but this is the best I have done so far.