Stumped. Need some help.
 

Hi everyone, I’m very stumped right now. Here’s my situation.

I bought the following kit and built it.

https://muzzle-loaders.com/products/...ucky-rifle-kit

Now, don’t get me wrong, I love shooting it. Problem is, I’m having severe accuracy issues. I positioned my target at 100 yards. Used a round ball and pre lubed patches. 70 grains of powder is what the manual said is most accurate, which is what I’ve been using.

It seems like no matter what I do, with or without wind, the ball misses the target at least one out of three shots. The other shots have terrible grouping.

I have no idea what the problem is. I double checked my aiming. I double checked my powder measure. I’m doing everything right as far as I know.

I don’t know what the problem is and why I it’s so inaccurate, though.

Some more details. I replaced the number 11 nipple with a musket nipple. I’m using Pyrodex RS powder FFG equivalent. Twist rate of the barrel is 1:66.

I really want to take this gun in September for a deer hunt, but I need to be as accurate as possible. If it doesn’t work out with this gun, I will take my in-line.

From what I described, and the details I have given, can anybody tell me what I’m doing wrong? Why is it so inaccurate?

If you need more details, let me know, and I will post them.

I’ve been working on this for two weeks with no success. It’s a little frustrating.

Jared

First off JN just because the manual says 79 grs is the most accurate that ain't necessarily so. Also what size balls are you shooting and what thickness are your patches? I would suggest using a .490" round ball and .015" thick patches to start. Also start with 80 gr (by volume) and work up in 10 grain increments. Swab the bore between each shot. You can use regular blue Windex on a patch and follow with a dry patch. Honestly you should be getting no less than 5" groups with your rifle if you're doing your part.

Watch this video for consistent ignition:

I’m actually doing a lot of that already. Using .490 lead balls and the right patches.

I’ll try the powder increments like you said, though.

You may also need thicker patches. I use pillow ticking that I buy in Walmart by the yard. I cut it in about 1.25" strips (3 lines) and then either cut at the muzzle or cut the strips into squares. Anther thing that will improve accuracy is the type of lube. Don't overlook it. My .58s shoot really well using olive oil as a patch lube while one of my 45s like a paste type lube. Bore Butter from tc is decent patch lube also.

As stated, every gun is different. What works in one gun may not work in another gun.

First, move your target up to about 30 yards and don’t move it back until you find an accurate load. 100 yards is too far to work up a round ball load

i might start with 60 gr of powder, shoot 3 times. Then 65, skip 70 since you already did that, then try 75, 80, 85, and 90. Would not go beyond 90 and hopefully you can find accuracy with less than that

One thing to look out for is how you are shooting the gun from the bench. Full stocked guns can sometimes be touchy on where you rest the forearm. Some prefer towards the muzzle, and some over one of the middle barrel pinnings. As all of my hunting is done from "off hand" and not a bench, I usually hold the forearm with my hand with my elbow on the bench and the gun to my shoulder and not on bags. I have had guns that shot good groups from the bench with the gun rested and in bags, that would shoot to a totally different point of aim when shot off hand. Moving your target closer until you find your best load is good advice. .

Thank you all. I believe I found the problems.

First, I was not aiming with the open sight properly. I am still getting used to an open sight, and this was the key reason I was all over the place. I was not aiming with the sight properly. I tried a different way of aiming, and it worked.

Second, the grains and powder brand. I used 70 grains today successfully. It worked well. I also changed the pyrodex powder itself to a different brand, also worked well.

Finally, the patch and ball. I was forced to change the ball size to 0.495. The store was out of .490 size. I also changed my patch size to .010 patches. I had better success with these, for some reason.

I got a 1" shot group at 100 yards with these changes and a little experimentation. Attaching a picture with my thumb as a reference for size.

Thanks again for the help, Ill let you all know if any more questions come up.

Jared

You don't start at 100 yards and work your way back until you hit something.

Thank you. For the record, I actually failed to post that I started at 30 yards on my last shooting session and then worked my way up.

OK, I was wrong. Still having the problem. I do NOT know what is causing it. I photographed and documented EVERYTHING I did this shooting session. Here is the data:

Date: 05/20/2022

Weather: partly cloudy, wind front to back 7mph



Targets 1, 3 resting gun



Targets 2, 4 no rest







Set target at 25 yards



Adjusted measure to 70 grains



Measured 70 grains



Put 70 grains RS ffg Pyrodex powder in gun



Put 0.010 patch and .495 ball in gun



Put musket cap on



Fire shot 1 target 1



Measured 70 grains



Put 70 grains RS ffg Pyrodex powder in gun



Put 0.010 patch and .495 ball in gun



Put musket cap on



Fire shot 2 target 1



Measured 70 grains



Put 70 grains RS ffg Pyrodex powder in gun



Put 0.010 patch and .495 ball in gun



Put musket cap on



Fire shot 3 target 1



Photographed target 1



Measured 70 grains



Put 70 grains RS ffg Pyrodex powder in gun



Put 0.010 patch and .495 ball in gun



Put musket cap on



Fire shot 4 target 2



Measured 70 grains



Put 70 grains RS ffg Pyrodex powder in gun



Put 0.010 patch and .495 ball in gun



Put musket cap on



Fire shot 5 target 2



Measured 70 grains



Put 70 grains RS ffg Pyrodex powder in gun



Put 0.010 patch and .495 ball in gun



Put musket cap on



Fire shot 3 target 2



Photographed target 2



Moved target to 100 yards



Measured 70 grains



Put 70 grains RS ffg Pyrodex powder in gun



Put 0.010 patch and .495 ball in gun



Put musket cap on



Fire shot 7 target 3



Measured 70 grains



Put 70 grains RS ffg Pyrodex powder in gun



Put 0.010 patch and .495 ball in gun



Put musket cap on



Fire shot 8 target 3



Measured 70 grains



Put 70 grains RS ffg Pyrodex powder in gun



Put 0.010 patch and .495 ball in gun



Put musket cap on



Fire shot 9 target 3



Photographed target 3



Measured 70 grains



Put 70 grains RS ffg Pyrodex powder in gun



Put 0.010 patch and .495 ball in gun



Put musket cap on



Fire shot 10 target 4



Measured 70 grains



Put 70 grains RS ffg Pyrodex powder in gun



Put 0.010 patch and .495 ball in gun



Put musket cap on



Fire shot 11 target 4



Measured 70 grains



Put 70 grains RS ffg Pyrodex powder in gun



Put 0.010 patch and .495 ball in gun



Put musket cap on



Fire shot 12 target 4



Photographed target 4



Calling it a day.

End of documentation.

Pictures of targets are attached. Target 1 was 25 yards resting the gun. Target 2 is 25 yards without resting the gun. Target 3 is 100 yards resting the gun. Target 4 is 100 yards without resting the gun. All targets were aimed at dead center.

Any idea what the problem is?

Jared

Thanks, like I said, in my most recent post, I started at 30 this time and worked my way up.

where are you located (city/state) many times some local guy might be able to help you out,
but if he does not know if your in Calif, Texas ,,Fla, or Alabama, its very unlikely he can offer to help, hands on!
if your near me Id be happy to help, show you a few tips, im in zip 75442 farmersville texas

I actually solved it today. It turns out that I wasn’t loading the gun properly. Patch was not centered on the ball and barrel. I did an experiment today with 90 grains, and I tried centering the patch to the best of my ability. To my surprise, it increased my accuracy.

1” group at 25 yards and 2” group at 100 yards

I think that was it.

Are you swabbing between shots? My suggestion is to continue shootin at 50 yds max until you get a grasp on what's going on.

You said you documented everything you did. Did you not clean between each shot?? If not, that could have been an issue.

Guns are different. Yours may not like 70 gr of powder. And I NEVER shoot farther than 30 yards until I find an accurate load. Why shoot at 100 when you are not getting good groups at 30??

I already told you what I would do in my post above. And none of it included shooting 70 gr. You shot quite a bit but you didn’t experiment.

Double posted

Your accuracy prob had more to do with shooting 90 gr than the placement of the patch.

Thanks for getting back. To be honest, you’re right. I did document everything I did. Cleaning was not on there, because I didn’t do it.

I’m lazy, but I’ll work on getting into the habit of cleaning between shots.

I actually went out again today, and I didn’t have the same issue. It was windy, though. That threw off my shot a little bit.

OK, I know I’ve been saying this a lot, but I for sure found the problem this time. I can’t believe it was this simple.

It all roots back to when I first built the gun from the kit. Once I built it, I tried shooting it immediately. However, I failed to align the open sight.

I figured this out, because there was no wind today and I shot a target at 25 yards. All my shots were about 2 inches to the left of the bull’s-eye, even though I was aiming at the bull’s-eye. I adjusted the site appropriately, and had good results at 25 yards, so I went to 100 yards. After four shots at 100 yards, I realized I fixed the problem. Every shot was getting into the kill zone at 25 yards and 100 yards.

I fixed it, and I’m very happy right now. Thank you all for the help and the advice.

Jared

It’s hardly ever just one thing. If it has been the sights all along, you would have gotten good groupings, but they would have been not in the bullseye. You were not getting good groups, so wasn’t all the sights fault.

What amount of powder are you using now?

Good point. I didn’t think of that.

I’m using 90 grains now. When I used 70 grains, my grouping was terrible. When I started using 90 a few days ago, my grouping started to improve. Wasn’t dead center, though. I think that part was the sight.

Now that I think about it, there’s one detail I failed to mention. My grouping has been reasonably good with 90 grains, but it has not been dead center. Sometimes, it even misses the target completely and hits a different part of the board.

I’m going to do further tests and see if the problem is resolved. I will keep you and everyone else updated.

I would drop to 75 gr and try 3 shots, then 80 gr and try 3 shots, then 85 and try 3 shots:

clean between each shot!!!

that is how I experiment with each new gun, bullet, and powder I try. Maybe you can get even better groups with 75,80, or 85 and use less powder (less expensive!)

it is not unusual for the group to move significantly with each change. That explains why the group moved to the left when you went from 70 to 90 gr. Don’t worry about moving your sights until you decide for sure on how much powder you will use to hunt with. Then move your sights.

Let’s review on what you have learned so far:

70 gr powder doesn’t work for this gun.

90 works much better but you still don’t know if that is this guns sweet spot. You need to experiment some more

center the ball in the patch (not sure that was a major problem)

clean between each shot. I use a wet patch followed by a dry patch

changing amount of powder changes your POI (point of impact). Any time you change the amount, you will have to adjust the sights.

Always experiment at 25-30 yds. Don’t move back until you have the best accuracy you can get, then change your sights for longer distances.

To be clear:

when I work up a new load at 25 yards, I DONT CARE where the bullets are hitting in relationship to the bullseye, just whether they are close together. ONLY after I decide which load is most accurate do I adjust the sights and move to longer ranges.

And THAT my friend, is the correct way to do it. Frankly, when shooting from the bench at 25 yards, if you are not getting five shots into a center-to-center group of 1-1/4" or less you need to continue with load development.

Also, unless I missed it, I haven't seen any mention of the type/amount of lube being used. Once you get the best accuracy you can with load adjustment using your current ball/patch combination, it's time to experiment a bit with lube. Some of my guns like a fairly damp patch. Others shine with the dry patch method.

Apologies for not posting for days. A family emergency came up and I needed to make a trip to Spokane, WA. I am back now.

I’ve been thinking about what you said, about how you don’t care where the bullets hit in relationship to the bullseye, and all that matters is how close together they are.

Question, why is that? I was under the impression that you needed to be accurate on the bullseye as well as have good grouping. Was I wrong?

I am going out today, and I’ll report how it goes.

Jared

I shoot 90 grns of black powder in my 50 cal flintlock and it is not too much, it is just right. It is not necessary to swab between shots either. I used to take my flintlock to youth conservation camp annually and teach the kids how to shoot flintlocks along with another guy. We loaded down to 70 grains for the kids and i really made little difference in accuracy and we would have as many as 6 different kiids shooting before we ran a swab through the barrel. Muzzlel loaders are not a one size fits all, you must find what the rifle likes and stick with it, there are no absolutes.

You are correct! it matters not if you have a one inch group if it is 6 inches from your aiming point which is the bullseye. The whole point of the bullseye is to provide an aiming point and it does for sure matter where the bullets hit the target.

Fact: whenever you change something (powder, bullet, even primers), your point of impact will change.

ALL you are looking for when you change powder amounts or try a new bullet is how close the bullets are to each other. That is accuracy. At this stage accuracy has nothing to do with how close to the bullseye they hit, only how close the bullets are to each other.

So I shoot 3 shot groups with each change. Each group will be all over the paper because of the above fact: you changed something. What you are looking for is that three shot group that is smallest. The smallest group is the “sweet spot” for your gun. It is the most accurate load that you have tried so far

Now that you have found an accurate load, NOW you change the sights so it hits the bullseye! THEN you move back to 50 and 100 yards. You usually will have to tweak the sights a little more. Only then, are you ready to go shoot something!

Hi guys, Thanks to another user I met and went shooting with, I found the problem.

First, I needed 90 grains of powder.

Second, I wasn’t using the open sight correctly.

Third and finally, I needed an over powder wad. I was skeptical this would help at first, but it did improve my grouping greatly. I don’t know why.

I am now shooting decent groups at 100 yards. I still need to work on my aim, but at least I’m hitting the target now with every shot, unlike before.

Thanks again for all the help and advice. I will upload pictures of the 10 shot group I got today later.

Jared

Here is my 10 shot group today at 100 yards.

100 yards with a black powder revolver! Not bad at all seeing as how you just got that gun. :cool2:The reason the over the powder wad helped your grouping is because the wad keeps the powder in place and helps seal in the gas

I apologize, but you misunderstood. This was not with the revolver, this was with the Kentucky rifle I was having problems with.

OK Nick now you got your sighting issue solved you can now work on tweaking your load. Change only one thing at a time (patches, lube, wads, etc.) Once you get it just the way your rifle likes it and you're consistent with your aiming and shooting you will easily cut that group in half.
Remember, compression of your charge is also important. Be sure to use the same amount of compression every time. Put a reference mark on your ramrod. If you have acess to a reloading scale weigh each charge and put them in a small tube like a speed loader or other vial. Example, if you are shooting 90 gr by volume, pour 90 gr by volume and weigh it. It may be 80-90 grs, then weight additional charges. Also swab the barrel between shots to keep the fouling consistent.
A lot of little tricks you'll learn along the way.

BTW did you shoot those shots right after each other without letting the barrel cool? If so were the first 4 the low ones and the next 5 high? I'm not counting the 1 way high. If that's the case it could be your barrel was getting too hot and changed your point of impact. Also if that's the case that is very good shooting.

Yea I did. No problem.

You are correct. I did not let the barrel cool. However, the first five shots were very high one, three above the bull’s-eye, and one below. The other five then showed up in those other spots. Only because I was aiming slightly lower to try and hit the bull’s-eye.

Next time I go shooting, I’ll be more consistent with where I aim.

Thanks a bunch, Jared BTW, it looks like now I can use this gun for a general short range deer hunt here. Season starts August 30.

When you're shooting for groups don't change your point of aim. Doing so just defeats the purpose of seeing what shoots best. Also, if it were me, I'd shoot at 50 yards to get a clearer sight picture at the target

Understood. Thanks for letting me know. I’ll try again later on this week.

Never mind.