Long range MLs
 

You guys got me thinking again which can be a very dangerous thing! Being from PA I don't get much opportunity to shoot long range at game. But shooting long range has started to pique my interest. I'm thinking of getting ML capable of shooting 400+ Yards at itty bitty targets. I was thinking about the Knight Mountaineer that some of you are shooting but I just can't get rid of my aversion to that antiquated ignition system with the knob to unscrew.
I was looking at used Rem 700/50 MLs but I would much prefer a .45. And the Rems I looked at were not in the best of shape anyway. Then along comes CVA with its new Paramount. This looks like a winner. I think I'll give it a little more time and see what the reviews are on it before I make any decisions.

Bronko…………… I've played in the LONG game for the last 5+ and spent more money than my wife (CFO) likely should have ever have let me spent.

I can tell you that the LONG RANGE shooting of a muzzleloader will bite you and bite you hard. Once you start shooting long range it starts becoming part of you and you want more. Its addicting!
I know where one "thinks" he wants to go is well past being just satisfied and ends at HAPPY.
If...….. you really want to get into the LONG range game, then my suggestion would be to go with a complete custom in the first place and save yourself a TON of money in the long run. I would also suggest that you go with a smokeless capable rifle, rather you ever shoot smokeless or not, they shoot all other propellants at much heavier charges than a production rifle. Believe me also, its not a cheap game either. For example, if you're sending 84grsW of BH now, you'll end up shooting 110grsW later (not for production rifles). It just happens and you will end up doing it. Sure you can shoot less propellant, but if you're getting into it for the LONG RANGE game, then costs WILL go up. Plan on it. In the end, it makes you a better shooter all the way around and 200yd shots are just chip shots down the road. There's no testing of the equipment, ONLY the shooter on the trigger.

My vote and without hesitation would be...….. SAVE YOURSELF A LOT OF MONEY AND TIME, GO CUSTOM USING THE REM 700 ACTION.

Every production muzzleloader still made today, requires "some" type of modification. Rather that be spacers, changing the breech plug to a custom, shimming, or any of the other things you can read about. With a custom, you're done. Go shoot and test yourself, because the rifle WILL test your abilities.
Good grief, the custom builders (Luke) have a fix for that leaking system in the new CVA Paramount.

My choice for my build was Jeff Fisk. I personally know Jeff and have shot beside him.
My suggestion for a build, not in any specific order:
Jeff Fisk..... Bestill Creations LLC
Luke Horok…… Arrowhead Rifles
Levi Reed...… LR Customs.
Hollis Weber
Gary Bush
NOTE: These guys are booked, so if you really want a custom, order it now.

Just one of my range cards...… w/300gr Fury star tip2 bullet

Aw heck Bronko. Just get a 1:20 barrel made for your Renegade. :D

you can also get a rifle built by Bobby Hart, of hart rifles, he is right in PA and has turned out some great long range muzzleloaders

I know you've said that before. I don't really see that "secondary safety" as a great feature. IMO it's just plain silly. They've had that same system since they came out. You think they could come up with something better. Other than that the Knights are great and accurate rifles. And their triggers could use some refinement too.

Those are really true statements. I really don't want to shoot competitively. Been there, done that. Just wasn't fun anymore and the novelty wore out. I just like hitting things way out yonder with regularity.

Then I'd go custom and save a lot of grief and money :)
You don't have to shoot competition, heck I shoot by myself all the time. If ANYONE thinks that just because you own a "custom", that you can always shoot tiny little groups, they couldn't be more wrong. It takes a lot of practice to shoot those tiny groups at 400 and 500yds.
Trust me, its much harder shooting at a spot the size of a dime at 500yds than it is shooting at an 8" gong. Not saying hitting steel isn't or can't be fun, but that's a large target compared to something the size of a dime. ;)

Boys and their toys...….
But if you want to shoot tiny little groups, repeatedly at long range, well then...……..

I don't know as again, I have many custom built rifles, and some YES did cost a bunch but many were NOT that costly, well under 2 grand
it all comes down to what all you WANT and WHO you have do it
many times your paying for names and hype and not getting much better a gun
so, nothing wrong with a custom made rifle if you know what you want and willing to work with a good smith and NOT a famous one!

Yes sir it certainly is. Its harder than most will ever realize, but dang its fun trying.

Its simple to NOT use the secondary safety. Just dont screw it in and if you want it more permanent just add a drop of silicone caulk to the threads.

Tell me, what company is using a better trigger than a Timney in any currently made mass produced inline muzzleloader? Sure appears to be a ton of Knights old and new winning the inline matches. I would imagine quite a few of those were still using the Velocity made triggers too. No doubt there are better triggers out there but they are few and far between even on upper end centerfire rifles. You wont even find many hunter grade rifles using triggers as good as a Timney or better unless spending big bucks.

If you want all the bells and whistles with tons of options build a ML off of a Rem700 single shot action. The action alone is about $500 with the X-Mark trigger. A top end Brux/Rock Creek/Shilen barrel with plug will set you back $600 or more. Another $500 for one of the upper end stocks and whatever a Jewel or better trigger costs. If you dont plan on shooting high end smokeless load you can get a Brux 45 1-20 Remage barrel for around $800 and DIY. It will handle any load of BH209 you would ever consider shooting.

In the end you will have $2000 or more in a rifle that probably wont out shoot a well tuned Knight 45 1-20 by much if just using BH209 or Swiss. A Mountaineer 45 1-20 even with a custom fit Bestill bushing plug will set you back almost half as much.

Knight would not be the one offering it though. Rem does not offer a Jewel trigger do they?. That is upto the trigger manufactures and contracts they sign. The solution is simple, just get a Rem action and get whatever trips your "trigger". Knight wont even sell just the Timney trigger last time i checked and neither will Timney because they are under contract. Not a snowballs chance Knight is gunna shell out $300+ for a true competitive match trigger. The market simply is not large enough for Jewel or whoever to produce them. The sales would be tiny compared to the production/tooling costs. Timney didnt even sell theirs directly after they lost the Knight contract the first time. Neither does Velocity and i have one of their best triggers they ever made for Knight. Its the same trigger Knight used the last couple years in the Manufactures matches. Both surely have/had the tooling in place to make and sell them but neither one has ever sold them directly to end users.

Well this thread is seeing some activity that's for sure. GM maybe its my nature with that knob/secondary safety. The way I hunt sometimes all you get is a quick shot and fiddling with that knob could mean the difference between getting the shot or not. And keeping it unscrewed in the firing position (with the safety on) would leave the ignition system exposed to the elements. For a target rifle I guess its no big deal. I'm just apprehensive about it. I think I'll just keep my eye out for a used 700ML in good shape. Maybe just use it as is or get something later on with the action.

How would it leave anything exposed? Its just a knob on the end of the bolt. It does nothing other than to prevent the firing pin from hitting the primer and bolt disassembly. That is why just a dab of silicone caulk works fine to disable it. It comes off easily when you need to clean the bolt internals.

I dont think you understand how it works.

maybe something top think about, but what's your opinion on a Savage 10MLBSS-II , with smokeless powder, it should be able to send things down range pretty good
I know a few guys that have them for hunting in Ohio, and other places and seen some tiny groups they get at 300 yards
there not into going farther, so not sure on that, but they do shoot well for what they are,!


and Hart, sells there own version of 700 ML's

they might have used one's in or know of some, if interested

i had 2 older Knights. you unscrew it and then have to pull it out to cock it. that would expose it. i'd just rather flip off the safety and fire. i wouldn't want that bolt resting on a primer when unscrewed even with the safety on

You are comparing a Knight plunger gun to a DISC based bolt action...Two entirely different designs other than the 2nd safety.

The ML-II is a terribly overpriced rifle now days and about the only part worth keeping is the action. The barrels kinda suck and its a heavy beast. Limited aftermarket as well. You could buy a brand new Rem UML for less more than likely and have a better base to start with. If you can find one that already has a nice barrel upgrade for under a grand its worth considering. Just avoid the small shank and 4.27" bolt spacing versions. You will greatly limit your stock options with that spacing.

My apology... I just assumed that they were the same as the older MK-85s

On a DISC, Extreme, Elite, Mountaineer, Ulite ect ect the seer only holds back the firing pin assembly. More or less just like a centerfire bolt assembly. The knob if tightened also only holds back the firing pin. On a Knight plunger gun (MKs, LKs, Wolverine, Bighorn ect), both hold back the entire plunger assembly.

A DISC type bolt is taken apart without tools by tightening the "knob" until the firing assembly can rotate. Its quite simple once you see how it works. You can clean the inside of the bolt with a brush that fits and some patches. It stays pretty clean inside if you have a good primer seal so clean up is very easy. Much cleaner than the plunger guns

This video should give you a better idea of how it comes apart and how it works. Original DISC and maybe some very early Extremes were slightly different and needed a little c shaped tool but its virtually the same.

That looks like a much better system. Maybe I'll start looking into one now. All along I assumed the newer system was the same as the ones on the MK.

If you want to stretch out a ML go with smokeless. I've had a gun built by Luke Horak (Arrowhead) and I now have a gun being built by Jeff Fisk (Bestill). My first gun was built on a Savage Target Action with a Brux 1:20 barrel. That gun has a McMillan stock topped with a Vortex HD Gen II scope. It will shoot better than I can ever shoot it. It's pretty unbelievable really. I live in IL so my guns have to be 45 caliber. This new gun is on a Remington 700 action and will have a Rock Creek barrel at 1:18. It will sit in a Manners T5A stock and I'm still undecided on the scope for that one. The stock is due in this month or next so I have some time to decide on a scope. Kyle Pittman makes some good bullets as does Jerry at Fury. I'll be trying the Fury Star Tip 2 in 325 grains on deer this season. I'm confident I can take a deer at 300 yards with my gun. I've shot beyond 300 but I'm not confident enough beyond 300 right now. Do some research on Dougs message board or Hank's message board. The Arrowhead gun shoots 325 grain bullets at 3025 FPS which is exhilerating!! Luke or Jeff are going to crank out great guns. I'd give Hollis Weber a serious look as well. Hollis Weber is Center Punch USA. All those guys can be found on Facebook and the web.

Good luck.

Its like Luke says, the best smokeless rifles make the best BH209 rifles also.

Lets see if this work. Pics of my gun (Except for the stock) from Bestill. Once the stock comes in from Manners the gun will go into it.

Seen that photo before ;)
Its insane how accurate customs are at long range.
Jeff built mine also.