arcticap

On Shilen's website, the difference between a "Select Match Grade" barrel and a "Match Grade" barrel is clearly described.
And true match grade shooters do know their differences and how fast that they can wear to the point of losing their "Select Match Grade" edge.
Shilen's select match grade barrels are air gauged to have a bore within .0003" of standard diameter with .0001" uniformity,
while Shilen's match grade barrels are air gauged to be have a bore within .0005" of standard diameter with .0003" uniformity. --->>> http://www.shilen.com/barrelGrades.html

If you would care to address the issue of how you went about air gauging your .45 barrel both before and after you began shooting conicals out of it
without experiencing any barrel wear, then I'd enjoy reading all about it.

Did you ever read a Sam Fadala book where he wrote about 200 shots generally being needed to break in a muzzle loader barrel or even wonder why he would write that?
He clearly meant that a new bore can often need to be broken in or worn in. which also means that he believes that shooting it promotes bore wear.
That's the same reason why people lap their bore to break it in faster instead of by simply shooting it.

Yes, generally conicals do become relatively looser in the bore once loaded past the muzzle crown compared to sabots, and conicals generally don't seal the gases as well which can lead to more gas blow by, gas cutting, erosion, and barrel abrasion with its associated wear from heat & powder residue blowing by it.
It's obvious that one single sentence from Randy Wakeman in opposition to your opinion was just too much additional evidence against your opinion so now you feel that you need to make more personal attacks.
We can agree to disagree on the wear issue and the looseness of "pure" lead conicals once rammed down into the breech where the heat erosion occurs.
But know that there's different reasons for erosion and abrasion as I already alluded to previously which you understandably don't want to agree with.
However you really should stop acting like a Cyber bully, mind your manners and stick to the topic.
I've been a member of this forum for 3 years longer than you have and object to your personal attacks just because you disagree with an opinion.

bronko22000

Actually one of the most accurate bullet I've ever shot out of my .45 cal Hawken was a 370 grain lead bullets that was cast from an 11mm mold (.443"), paper patched and final sized to .447". That's a far cry from the .451" -.454" bore diameters of the average .45 cal muzzy.
IMO most muzzleloader barrels that are "shot out" is simply a lack of maintenance by the owner an the bore/rifling is badly leaded. As of yet I have no opinion as to the effect of poor maintenance on a heavy diet of saboted bullets in regard to sabots fouling the rifling.

Gm54-120

I cant imagine these would "rattle down" a bore. The upper band/s were typically over sized on Great Plains to achieve a better fit. Pretty common conical too around the time RW wrote that article. How could he miss it is anyone's guess since he is "an expert" on the subject.


In my SUPER DISC i shoot a .458 Gould HP that has been sized down to .452. Accuracy is exceptional and its only .002 over lands in that rifle. Its pretty simple to seal a conical if that is a concern. Veggie, wool wads or if you really want tight they sell poly wads for a couple cents each. I have no doubt a .463 poly wad will seal extremely well in my bores. The ones for 50cal are .512. The largest OD 50cal sabot is maybe around .509-.510 and the base with the skirt is typically quite a bit less.
https://www.buffaloarms.com/reloadin...wads/poly-wads

IMO about the only real con for casting FOR sabots is getting the hardness and sabot fit right....Too soft in a tight sabot and you might deform the ogive when loading them....Too hard and the bullet will act like a hardcast on impact. Virtually no expansion. Thats not a huge problem really if you choose a mold with a large metplat.

arcticap

Here's a home cast .54 Lyman bullet that got stuck 3 inches down a clean bore when loading for the 1st shot which resulted in needing to pull the bullet.--->>> http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...sizing-bullets
He used hard lead for casting because he had 400 pounds of it.
The lead impurities probably caused it to be oversized.
An analysis of a sample of his casting lead showed that it contained the following elements:

87.53% lead
6.66% antimony
1.97% tin
1.92% titanium
1.79% iron
0.12% copper

That it contained titanium seemed unusual.
Looking it up shows that some titanium can be harder than some steels.

bronko22000

Hook you can try and cast a couple of them. But as for a sabot, unless your bore is on the larger side, you should use Harvester black crush rib sabots. These will make it easier to load. You don't have to use pure lead for bullets that you will be using a sabot with as long as you use the correct sabot and bullet diameter. Sabots were designed so you can use jacketed bullets. But too hard an alloy and you won't have any expansion like GM said.

Gm54-120

It appears that Hook is already a little familiar with casting conicals. In this case a REAL.
Sizing for muzzleloader

Is also appears he has a CVA Acurra and a older BlackDiamond. I would try the standard Harvester smooth sabots first if these are for the Accura. The Crushrib may be a better fit for the BlackDiamond. A Lee sizing die is cheap but likely not needed if casting for sabots. Like $20-22 cheap for .451, .452 and .454 They do come in handy however if a sabot is just a tiny bit too tight. Just resize the bullet a little smaller. Works great, ive done it many times.

NOE sells a (sorta) adjustable sizer. You change out a $10 sizer bushing and push rod. The body assembly though is around $40. Could be a useful item if casting for both 50cal sabotless and sabotted.
http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?cPath=564_104

arcticap

I read a 2017 thread with posts by some long rifle builders on the American Longrifles Forum titled "So... barrel steel discussion here?"
The discussion centers around the fact that many of the small premier US long rifle barrel makers are using 12L14 steel to make their barrels with.
Yet 12L14 steel is not recognized by metallurgists or recommended by the steel industry itself as a bona fide gun barrel steel. [See the letter below]
There are much better gun barrel steels, but 12L14 is used for its machinabilty and because it's less expensive than recognized gun barrel steel.
And just like the fact that it officially has a lower threshold of strength, it can also have less wear and abrasion resistance than other recognized modern gun barrel steels.
Another interesting fact mentioned is that when steel is alloyed there can be inclusions or sections of unevenly distributed alloyed material which in the case of 12L14 it is alloyed with lead, among other elements.
Who knew that so many 12L14 long rifle barrels are alloyed with lead to increase its machinablity?
I certainly didn't know.




Posted by Dphariss Post 8465 --->>> http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/...?topic=43037.0

Idaholewis

arcticap

It may have been the ALR thread [or somewhere else], that said that TC used 4150 steel that is actually much stronger.
Possibly more brittle but it was properly treated by TC.
It's mostly the specialty long rifle barrel makers that use the 12L14 in order to keep costs lower for individual builders.
It's not that they are unsafe, although the thread mentions that they are easier to blow out when loading mistakes are made.
But rather that there are better steels more suitable for gun barrels.
My only purpose for posting this at all is because it shows that there are different quality barrels that are currently being produced.
The different steels used by the different makers means that it's more difficult to generalize about all modern barrels.
It's possible that the imported Spanish sidelock guns and the old TC sidelocks have stronger barrels than made by some of these "premium" long barrel makers today.
From what I've read, TC had more than one company making barrels for them, and then they may have also started making their own barrels after a period or time.
It's helpful to read the original thread as it provides some info. from both sides on the issue about 12L14 compared to other barrel steels.

Idaholewis