Advice on Sabots
11-06-2018, 05:42 AM
#11
Typical Buck
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: fairview park oh
Posts: 657
what diameter do you use i see 2 listed .451 & .452 deep curls that show hand gun hunting. and do you have a part number for them ? were is the best place to get them also thank you
Last edited by t.shaffer; 11-06-2018 at 05:48 AM.
11-06-2018, 07:45 AM
#12
Typical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Central Connecticut
Posts: 766
Graf's has some in stock:--->>> https://www.grafs.com/catalog/product/productId/17309
Graf's lists them as .452 but the Speer product page lists that same part number 3974 as being .451:--->>> https://www.speer-ammo.com/bullets/h...54-casull-dchp
Graf's lists them as .452 but the Speer product page lists that same part number 3974 as being .451:--->>> https://www.speer-ammo.com/bullets/h...54-casull-dchp
Last edited by arcticap; 11-06-2018 at 07:53 AM.
11-06-2018, 08:55 AM
#13
Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: texas
Posts: 1,201
I have watched dozens of guys I hunt with upgrade to the more modern black powder rifles,
just a tip for the guys just getting into black powder rifle use,
CALIBER MATERS, bullet mass matters, rifle twist rates matter,
your dealing with a traditional hunting rifle thats in most cases best at under 200 yards
the larger and heavier the projectile the more effective a properly placed shot seems to be in my experience!
the newer guys all try sabot, and all the new tech.and while it can provide impressive accuracy,
sub caliber sabots don,t have the impact of a big chunk of soft lead,
Ive yet to have a shot over 170 yards and even at that range a 62 caliber round ball is lethal on an elks lung/heart area.
Ive looked on, and almost giggle at times at the lengths guys go to,with the 45 and 50 caliber rifles,
yes Im fully aware Im old fashion and out of step, with the in crowd
, but a hawken style 62 caliber shooting a round patched ball over 100 gains of 2f powder
has consistently resulted in game that dropped after only a very short run,
the round balls generally resemble a thick 50 cent coin under the far side hide on elk,\
and frequently pass through deer. its not high tech, I load 100 grains of 2f followed by a firmly tamped cosmetic cotton ball,
follow the cotton ball with a bore size glob of this flax soap lube, then ram your patched ball down the bore,use this method and the bore stays clean no mater the number of shots fired, accuracy is consistent, 2" 3 shot hundred yard groups are very frequent off a good bench rest,
probably due to the fact my hawken has a 42" barrel and a peep site.
OK, the use of the cotton ball and grease between the patched ball , and the powder charge compressed under it,will both increase velocity and noticeably reduce bore fouling as it both acts as a sabot and bore swab,with the rifles bore vertical, you pour the consistent volume of measured powder charge down the bore first, than thump the side of the barrel with your palm to hopefully causing the vast majority of the loose black powder to fall into the breach area of the rifles barrel.
the soap paste is similar to peanut butter or axle grease as it comes out of the can, wet a patch with water and rub a bit into both surfaces to get a well greased patch that makes loading a patched ball fairly easy
Ive generally found a charge of 80-90 grains of 2f to provide good accuracy with a 50 cal, patched ball.
you then place a decent size clean dry cotton ball in the bore and force it down bore about 1" a finger tip of the soap paste is placed into the bore on top,of the cotton ball, you want about a volume that will fill the bore to about a depth equal to its cross sectional area.
you then place a well greased patch that's centered over the bore ,and place the round lead ball in its center.
you then seat the ball into the rifling,forcing the ball diameter to seat and squeeze the surrounding patch into the rifling where in forms a cup like gasket around the base and sides of the projectile/,by placing the shourt started concave surface (A) on the projectile and giving it a firm shove with the short starter, now that its fully engaged , you flip the short starter and ram it the short length down the bore,
this compacts the patched ball into the grease but forced the cotton ball below to act as both a bore swab and pressure gasket that prevents moisture from reaching the powder charge.
this is the same soap base grease in a larger container and cheaper per pound and easier to locate than the smaller container below
the soap paste is similar to peanut butter or axle grease as it comes out of the can, wet a patch with water and rub a bit into both surfaces to get a well greased patch that makes loading a patched ball fairly easy
http://www.colpalcommercial.com/brands.aspx?id=1730
just a tip for the guys just getting into black powder rifle use,
CALIBER MATERS, bullet mass matters, rifle twist rates matter,
your dealing with a traditional hunting rifle thats in most cases best at under 200 yards
the larger and heavier the projectile the more effective a properly placed shot seems to be in my experience!
the newer guys all try sabot, and all the new tech.and while it can provide impressive accuracy,
sub caliber sabots don,t have the impact of a big chunk of soft lead,
Ive yet to have a shot over 170 yards and even at that range a 62 caliber round ball is lethal on an elks lung/heart area.
Ive looked on, and almost giggle at times at the lengths guys go to,with the 45 and 50 caliber rifles,
yes Im fully aware Im old fashion and out of step, with the in crowd
, but a hawken style 62 caliber shooting a round patched ball over 100 gains of 2f powder
has consistently resulted in game that dropped after only a very short run,
the round balls generally resemble a thick 50 cent coin under the far side hide on elk,\
and frequently pass through deer. its not high tech, I load 100 grains of 2f followed by a firmly tamped cosmetic cotton ball,
follow the cotton ball with a bore size glob of this flax soap lube, then ram your patched ball down the bore,use this method and the bore stays clean no mater the number of shots fired, accuracy is consistent, 2" 3 shot hundred yard groups are very frequent off a good bench rest,
probably due to the fact my hawken has a 42" barrel and a peep site.
OK, the use of the cotton ball and grease between the patched ball , and the powder charge compressed under it,will both increase velocity and noticeably reduce bore fouling as it both acts as a sabot and bore swab,with the rifles bore vertical, you pour the consistent volume of measured powder charge down the bore first, than thump the side of the barrel with your palm to hopefully causing the vast majority of the loose black powder to fall into the breach area of the rifles barrel.
the soap paste is similar to peanut butter or axle grease as it comes out of the can, wet a patch with water and rub a bit into both surfaces to get a well greased patch that makes loading a patched ball fairly easyIve generally found a charge of 80-90 grains of 2f to provide good accuracy with a 50 cal, patched ball.
you then place a decent size clean dry cotton ball in the bore and force it down bore about 1" a finger tip of the soap paste is placed into the bore on top,of the cotton ball, you want about a volume that will fill the bore to about a depth equal to its cross sectional area.
you then place a well greased patch that's centered over the bore ,and place the round lead ball in its center.
you then seat the ball into the rifling,forcing the ball diameter to seat and squeeze the surrounding patch into the rifling where in forms a cup like gasket around the base and sides of the projectile/,by placing the shourt started concave surface (A) on the projectile and giving it a firm shove with the short starter, now that its fully engaged , you flip the short starter and ram it the short length down the bore,
this compacts the patched ball into the grease but forced the cotton ball below to act as both a bore swab and pressure gasket that prevents moisture from reaching the powder charge.
this is the same soap base grease in a larger container and cheaper per pound and easier to locate than the smaller container below
the soap paste is similar to peanut butter or axle grease as it comes out of the can, wet a patch with water and rub a bit into both surfaces to get a well greased patch that makes loading a patched ball fairly easyhttp://www.colpalcommercial.com/brands.aspx?id=1730
11-06-2018, 12:39 PM
#14
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: River Ridge, LA (Suburb of New Orleans)
Posts: 10,917
Good stuff hardcastonly. I don't have a .62, but do have three .58 round ball shooters that I'm very fond of. They knock the snot out of whitetails. But you have to shoot them on the range enough to learn the rainbow trajectory.
Do you have any idea of what velocity you're getting with your load?
Do you have any idea of what velocity you're getting with your load?
11-06-2018, 12:50 PM
#15
Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: texas
Posts: 1,201
truthfully NO, but I think its in the 1400 fps range , in that 42" barrel with,
the load like I listed using the cotton ball, grease patch system,
the balls weight about 322 grains
I know the rifle shoots reasonably well with up to 120 grain charge but top accuracy is at 100 grains
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categ...2/1/LEE-600-DC
the load like I listed using the cotton ball, grease patch system,
the balls weight about 322 grains
I know the rifle shoots reasonably well with up to 120 grain charge but top accuracy is at 100 grains
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categ...2/1/LEE-600-DC
Last edited by hardcastonly; 11-06-2018 at 12:55 PM.
11-06-2018, 03:34 PM
#16
Typical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 995
I'm going to have to listen to my BS meter which is singing fairly high right now. I would actually love to see anyone with a .62 try to accurately and consistently shoot 170 yards with a PRB. Way too many variables with PRB's at that distance. You may or may not have enough energy at that range with a starting MV of 1400 but that in itself is highly doubtful. Round balls lose too much energy too fast for that to be believable. Not to mention wind drift and even the rainbow of that much lead moving that slow. To fire any roundball no matter what caliber past 100 yards at a living animal is disrespectful to the game we hunt.
11-06-2018, 05:45 PM
#17
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: River Ridge, LA (Suburb of New Orleans)
Posts: 10,917
A 324 grain .600 round ball fired at 1400 fps has 457 ft. lbs. of energy a 175 yards. With the right sights, a good rest and little to no wind, an experienced shooter can easily make an ethical 175 yard shot.
11-07-2018, 08:06 AM
#19
Fork Horn
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 141
I had the same problem with 250g Hornady SST's. No good blood trails. I went to a Hornady 240g XTP Mag with 100 grains of Blackhorn 209. Get about 1850fps out of this load. My longest shot with it so far was 140yards and it passed thru the deer and left a good blood trail.
11-07-2018, 09:17 AM
#20
Typical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 995
Semisane, I've been sending PRB's downrange for over 40 years. Everything from .32 squirrel rifle rounds up to .68 elephant ball. And 457#'s energy is not what I would call ethical with a PRB. The terminal ballistics of the round ball needs a good bit more than that to effectively dispatch a whitetail let alone an elk. More along the lines of 100#'s more. A bunch of paper in books doesn't tell me that. Many years of taking game with my smokepoles does. I've taken squirrels, rabbits, coyotes, groundhogs, with the .32's. Whitetail, black bear, caribou, elk, and moose with from .45 up to .68 all with PRB and I can tell you in no uncertain terms that 175 yards is not a distance I would want anyone shooting at live game with a round ball. The terminal ballistics combined with the poor external ballistics just isn't there and it cranks my critter to see people proposing it.