Looking for a new BP Rifle
09-20-2018, 12:40 PM
#11
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,703
I know there are many makes and kinds. I am in the market for a new rifle. Something mid tier. Maybe say $500 max I don’t know. I haven’t bought a BP in a very long time. My first one I bought was a T/C Omega X7. I won’t be shooting anything more than 100 yards. Would like something with a weather guard if possible. I know this is a trap question and shouldn’t be asking but oh well. I am in Florida and about 1 hour from a Bass Pro if I need to make a trip to get one. Places near me have a very limited selection.
It has a 3 stage Nitrate process both exterior and interior of the bore.
https://www.muzzleloaders.com/produc...itride-finish/
If you might be interested shop the rifle from this source - much better price...
https://www.muzzle-loaders.com/rifle...04nb-1852.html
Last edited by sabotloader; 09-20-2018 at 12:43 PM.
09-22-2018, 11:07 AM
#12
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,605
I like that the barrel of the Traditions Nitride Pursuit G4 model is made of chromloy steel.
That's the same steel that centerfire rifles are made from.
It comes with or without a scope package:--->>> https://www.muzzle-loaders.com/rifle...749246nmz.html
The product page says that even the scope is covered by the Traditions lifetime warranty.
That's the same steel that centerfire rifles are made from.
It comes with or without a scope package:--->>> https://www.muzzle-loaders.com/rifle...749246nmz.html
The product page says that even the scope is covered by the Traditions lifetime warranty.
Its highly unlikely they are using the same Lothar Walther premium barrel blanks they use on their centerfires.
Last edited by Gm54-120; 09-22-2018 at 11:25 AM.
09-22-2018, 02:23 PM
#13
Typical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Central Connecticut
Posts: 766
You realize its not actually the same steel or at least not the same level of testing/proofing. Green Mountain uses 4140 chrome moly and 416 to make Knight barrels also. Pretty much everyone uses good steel now days. The days of using cheap extruded blanks are pretty much long gone. Only a handful of customs and aftermarket vendors use anything better. Traditions have long been about at the bottom of the mass produced muzzle loaders. Why get nitride 4140 when you can have nitride over 416SS?
Its highly unlikely they are using the same Lothar Walther premium barrel blanks they use on their centerfires.
Its highly unlikely they are using the same Lothar Walther premium barrel blanks they use on their centerfires.
"Traditions™ PA Pellet™ Ultralight just became a game changer for your Flintlock season! Based off of the popular PA Pellet™ Flintlock, Traditions™ has changed the barrel to be made of Premium grade Chromoly steel which is typically found on centerfire rifles. This material makes the barrel extremely strong, lightweight, and accurate. The new 1:28" twist allows you to fire saboted bullets and modern muzzleloading projectiles. Additionally, the barrel is now coated with a Nitride Finish which is designed to protect both the inside and outside of your barrel against rust and pitting caused by weather and corrosion."
https://www.traditionsfirearms.com/c...let-Ultralight
The weight of the G4 is listed as being only 5.75 pounds with a scope on the product page link. That's the same weight range as the Knight Ultralight rifle that's 3 times as expensive.
It's not about whether the black powder barrels are proofed for centerfire cartridges or not, it's about whether the steel is the same.
Why does the Optima V2 weigh almost a full pound more @ 6.65 lbs.without a scope, which is made from 416 stainless?
And the G4 has flutes to boot which would make it even weaker for its diameter if it weren't made from their centerfire steel.
The only way to be sure is to ask Traditions, but the PA Pellet Ultralight page clearly explains that premium centerfire steel is being used for some of their muzzle loaders.
How else to explain the weight difference if it's not made from centerfire steel?
I realize that the receiver is alloy, but the G4 has a light weight that's unmatched - at least for the price - even if the listed weight for the G4 is wrong and didn't include the scope.
The G4 would still weigh about 1 pound lighter.
As best as I can surmise, some companies make proprietary steel that's specifically formulated to have certain properties and performance characteristics which then
allows the company to refer to it with a unique name.
That can mean that while 2 steels may be similar, they would not necessarily be the same, and that the exact formulation of the steel can be kept secret.
Last edited by arcticap; 09-22-2018 at 04:24 PM.
09-22-2018, 09:36 PM
#14
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,605
Keep dreaming. A Lothar Walther CF premium blank is fairly expensive and more costly to machine. If all their MLs had LW premium grade CF blanks they would be singing it on the mountain like they are their centerfires. LW makes one of the strongest SS barrels available called LW50. Similar to 17-4 or 420SS in durability which is tougher than 416R but harder to machine also. . SO that leaves LW19 which is their CM steel since Traditions dont offer SS barrels. LW19 is similar to 4340 and again a harder steel to work with than standard 4140 which is SUPER common for barrel use. Most big vendors probably use 4140CM steel for barrels. Knight has been using 4140 GM barrels for ages and now uses mostly 416SS. The vast majority of 2010 and newer CVAs are 416.
Put the G4 on a scale with a scope. The G4 without a scope says 5.75lbs too. I guess the scope weighs nothing? Lets see it. Care to guess any other ways they saved on weight like using a plastic trigger guard? Hollow buttstock maybe? It sure aint a kevlar/graphite composite like my NULA for that price. Yes 5.75lbs is a nice weight for a bare rifle but it had very little to do with using CM steel for the barrel. If they switched to LW19 blanks that is very commendable but i find it highly unlikely.
Look here. I guess it dont weight 5 3/4lb WITH the scope
Base price for the G4 is just over $300 at ML.com. The comparable Optima V2 in 416SS with nitride is $348 with a 1 piece scope mount or $360 for the LR version.
Put the G4 on a scale with a scope. The G4 without a scope says 5.75lbs too. I guess the scope weighs nothing? Lets see it. Care to guess any other ways they saved on weight like using a plastic trigger guard? Hollow buttstock maybe? It sure aint a kevlar/graphite composite like my NULA for that price. Yes 5.75lbs is a nice weight for a bare rifle but it had very little to do with using CM steel for the barrel. If they switched to LW19 blanks that is very commendable but i find it highly unlikely.
Look here. I guess it dont weight 5 3/4lb WITH the scope
Without the scope, this rifle weighs just 5 3/4-pounds - easily making it one of the lightest (if not the lightest) .50 caliber break open No. 209 primer ignition muzzleloading big game rifle on the market. Even with the Hi-Lux Optics 3-9x scope ... base ... and rings, the entire rig weighs in right at 7 3/4-pounds
09-23-2018, 07:15 AM
#15
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,605
Interesting tidbit i found and while i actually agree with them....The G4 is NOT a "magnum" rated ML. Hodgdon has never condoned using over 100gr of loose powder or 3 pellets. They are fairly clear on max loads for the original T7 and Pyrodex products. ML manufacturers though are another story. CVA and Knight for example both approve of 3 pellets and upto 150gr of loose by volume. I will say this for Traditions though, atleast they allow the use of 3FG in a 50cal. CVA does not.
Notice the top warning. The manual is dated January 2016
https://www.traditionsfirearms.com/d...1485976602.pdf
Notice there is no "mag" pellet load data or even 2 T7 Mag pellet data.
Not one load over the powder manufacturers limitations. And they even went as far to include MAX
Oddly the older Bulkstalker, Evolution and older Pursuit without "chromoly" listed in the description do allow for higher loose charges in the manual. They are quite clear the max "MAG" load is for loose Pyrodex and real black ONLY.
Notice the top warning. The manual is dated January 2016
https://www.traditionsfirearms.com/d...1485976602.pdf
Notice there is no "mag" pellet load data or even 2 T7 Mag pellet data.
Not one load over the powder manufacturers limitations. And they even went as far to include MAX
Oddly the older Bulkstalker, Evolution and older Pursuit without "chromoly" listed in the description do allow for higher loose charges in the manual. They are quite clear the max "MAG" load is for loose Pyrodex and real black ONLY.
The maximum powder load for the break-open muzzleloaders when using Pyrodex ®powder is 150 grains.The maximum powder load for the break-open muzzleloaders when using Triple 7®loose powder is 130 grains.
09-23-2018, 08:17 AM
#16
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,605
Sorry but the manual is quite clear what the MAX load is and that you should never exceed that load. Nowhere in the manual does it describe the G4 as a "Magnum ML" but i does say never to exceed 150gr of real black. A max load of BH209 makes less peak pressure than 3 pellets but yields around the same speed. It wont even break 27Kpsi in a 45 with a sabotless 300gr bullet. It makes even less in a 50cal sabot load. The entire "MAG" hype was always based around pellets and pushed heavily by cheaper imports. CVA continues with this line of BS today while at the same time wont allow 100gr of ANY 3FG in their rifles.
120gr by volume of BlackMZ also weighs more than 120gr by volume of BH209. Roughly 21gr more IIRC. ( About 105gr vs 84gr?) As total ejecta weight increases so does recoil. Powder weight is included in all the recoil calculators ive found. Although i find it a little hard to believe its "pure hell" worse since BH209 will also achieve higher velocity.
Using their numbers and just 7lbs for the rifle, its about 10% more recoil energy with BlackMZ
Your CVA gun utilizes a 209 shotgun shell primer to ignite the powder charge (or musket caps in appropriate markets). It is fully magnum capable*. This means that you can use the “magnum” charge of 150 grains equivalent of pelletized blackpowder substitutes.
The maximum load in CVA break-action guns, and any other CVA in-line gun designated as a “Magnum” is 150 grains by volume. This maximum load is generally known as the “magnum” load and is best suited for pelletized powder due to the more efficient burning characteristics of the powder pellets. Magnum loads of loose powder may be shot but are not recommended becauseof their inefficient and incomplete burning of the powder.
Using their numbers and just 7lbs for the rifle, its about 10% more recoil energy with BlackMZ
Last edited by Gm54-120; 09-23-2018 at 08:32 AM.
09-23-2018, 12:14 PM
#17
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Near a lake with no fish
Posts: 1,077
09-23-2018, 12:31 PM
#18
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Near a lake with no fish
Posts: 1,077
You wouldn't want to shoot a REAL rifle then, or the recoil would cause you to stop shooting all together. 100grs of 120grs has no recoil in a muzzleloading rifle except for pip squeaks. Thanks for mentioning that their stocks are not designed correctly......
09-23-2018, 12:45 PM
#19
Typical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 866
Yeah, sure, that's nothing... it'll just reset the hammer for you on most Hawken rifles. Normally I take that as some sort of "clue".
09-23-2018, 12:59 PM
#20
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Near a lake with no fish
Posts: 1,077
