Lehigh Spear -- Another Look
03-15-2018, 06:07 PM
#11
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,703
The reason for the Tip...
Let me take a stab at this bronco... The original bullet a .452x240CF-HP is a normal Lehigh with a large hollow point. This is the ballistic Sheet for that bullet.
If you look at this sheet you can see that at 225 yards the bullet is losing velocity and energy. It is still an effective bullet for deer if the Controlled Fracturing occurs.
But with the tip installed, checked the effective range of this bullet. It jumps from 225 yards to 400 yards. And that really is the reason for the Tip
Now there is no way in the world that I am taking a 400 yard shot at a deer - but you know in the mid west out in the flat country there are an will be people capable of that shot.
In Ron's particular test the bullet did not do what I would expect with the 50 grain load. Grouse has already tested the low velocity function of the bullet and his numbers show Controlled Fracturing occurring at some less than 1200fps. I still have to do this testing for me to verify but Tom has been doing this for a long time. He has also harvested deer with the bullet and it function as designed. I do not know the ranges...
Totally agree - but I really think it does and if it doesn't know it will
Hope you can use some of this information
Let me take a stab at this bronco... The original bullet a .452x240CF-HP is a normal Lehigh with a large hollow point. This is the ballistic Sheet for that bullet.
If you look at this sheet you can see that at 225 yards the bullet is losing velocity and energy. It is still an effective bullet for deer if the Controlled Fracturing occurs.
But with the tip installed, checked the effective range of this bullet. It jumps from 225 yards to 400 yards. And that really is the reason for the Tip
Now there is no way in the world that I am taking a 400 yard shot at a deer - but you know in the mid west out in the flat country there are an will be people capable of that shot.
If the tip didn't do its job by assisting in the expansion when a lighter load was used wouldn't the velocity be similar out past the 200 yard mark? I don't know what the fps would be out there. Anyone run the ballistics?
Now don't get me wrong, its an interesting concept - but if it doesn't work what's the point (no pun intended)?
Hope you can use some of this information
Last edited by sabotloader; 03-16-2018 at 06:34 AM.
03-16-2018, 03:35 AM
#12
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Near a lake with no fish
Posts: 1,077
Some might say that a tip doesn't matter, but those charts clearly show it makes a difference, not only in velocity but bullet energy. Thanks sabotloader. Ballistics charts certainly show the results.
At 150yds, which all modern inline rifles are capable of, without the tip the energy indicates 1,206fpe, where with the tip its increased at the same range to 1,661fpe. When one gets to 200yds, the energy spread is even greater. 967fpe vs 1,446fpe.
Big difference in effective ranges.
At 150yds, which all modern inline rifles are capable of, without the tip the energy indicates 1,206fpe, where with the tip its increased at the same range to 1,661fpe. When one gets to 200yds, the energy spread is even greater. 967fpe vs 1,446fpe.
Big difference in effective ranges.
03-16-2018, 06:23 AM
#14
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,703
Thanks for the catch
Thanks Ron.. got it corrected
Last edited by sabotloader; 03-16-2018 at 06:34 AM.
03-16-2018, 06:44 AM
#15
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Eastern PA
Posts: 12,747
OK, I can see the improvement over the two designs. Now again as a comparison I ran the calculations using the Hornady program and the 300 gr XTP with a BC of .245. Using the same MV and the lowly XTP still retains more energy then the Spear at 450 yards and only hitting 11" lower (likely a bit less because I used a 150 yard zero where the Spear was 1/4" higher). If the Barnes ballistic program can give different results for the XTP I'd like to see it along side the Spear. Also, if the ballistics were the sole basis for choosing a bullet, the original Lehigh design is a real dog. But then again so is the round ball. And we all know they can kill, but at a much lesser range.
Now to be honest I can't honestly see me or many other hunters shooting at game out to 400+ yards with a muzzy. I know some of you can and do successfully and I know you that do practice diligently. I can agree too that the Lehigh design, when functioned as intended, does cause significant tissue damage. But is the cost of the bullet worth it when a lesser priced bullet will also humanely take game? That is something you personally must decide. I know some states like liberal California require the use of non-lead bullets. But that's the exception rather than the rule.
Now to be honest I can't honestly see me or many other hunters shooting at game out to 400+ yards with a muzzy. I know some of you can and do successfully and I know you that do practice diligently. I can agree too that the Lehigh design, when functioned as intended, does cause significant tissue damage. But is the cost of the bullet worth it when a lesser priced bullet will also humanely take game? That is something you personally must decide. I know some states like liberal California require the use of non-lead bullets. But that's the exception rather than the rule.
03-16-2018, 07:37 AM
#16
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,703
OK, I can see the improvement over the two designs. Now again as a comparison I ran the calculations using the Hornady program and the 300 gr XTP with a BC of .245. Using the same MV and the lowly XTP still retains more energy then the Spear at 450 yards and only hitting 11" lower (likely a bit less because I used a 150 yard zero where the Spear was 1/4" higher). If the Barnes ballistic program can give different results for the XTP I'd like to see it along side the Spear. Also, if the ballistics were the sole basis for choosing a bullet, the original Lehigh design is a real dog. But then again so is the round ball. And we all know they can kill, but at a much lesser range.
Now to be honest I can't honestly see me or many other hunters shooting at game out to 400+ yards with a muzzy. I know some of you can and do successfully and I know you that do practice diligently. I can agree too that the Lehigh design, when functioned as intended, does cause significant tissue damage. But is the cost of the bullet worth it when a lesser priced bullet will also humanely take game? That is something you personally must decide. I know some states like liberal California require the use of non-lead bullets. But that's the exception rather than the rule.
Now to be honest I can't honestly see me or many other hunters shooting at game out to 400+ yards with a muzzy. I know some of you can and do successfully and I know you that do practice diligently. I can agree too that the Lehigh design, when functioned as intended, does cause significant tissue damage. But is the cost of the bullet worth it when a lesser priced bullet will also humanely take game? That is something you personally must decide. I know some states like liberal California require the use of non-lead bullets. But that's the exception rather than the rule.
But you need to remember it would take a chunk more powder to get the 300 XTP to 2135fps.
This sheet is with 110 gr. of T7-2f
The other thing pushing that bullet to 2135fps velocity would really probably have a detrimental effect on the bullet. It would like likely come apart - separate the lead from the copper.
This was one of many comparisons that I did several years ago. Understand - not always did this separation occur but since I could not choose which shot it might occur on at that time I did make a change to the Gold Dot. These bullets were both shot at a much slower fps than the Lehigh's being tested.
03-16-2018, 08:51 AM
#17
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,703
Ron, just had a interesting thought... could you take one of the Lehigh base bullets, one without petals, and do one of your shots with 50 gains V. Without the petals the bullet loses a lot of it's ability to create the bigger part of its 'Terminal Shock' but I am really thinking the base bullet, with that jagged cutting nose, will still cause a lot of 'Hydrostatic shock' in the first two jugs. The 'CF' function of the bullet is suppose to cause a high amount of 'physical shock'. But I do believe core of the bullet will create a significant amount 'Hydrostatic shock'. I know I haven't down this and I do not think you have - but in the name of science might be nice to know.
Ya, I know am violating one the major premises of a public test... 'do not ask a public question if you do not the answer.'
mike
Ya, I know am violating one the major premises of a public test... 'do not ask a public question if you do not the answer.'
mike
Last edited by sabotloader; 03-16-2018 at 08:56 AM.
03-16-2018, 12:50 PM
#18
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Rapid City, South Dakota
Posts: 3,732
Still have the bullet pictured in the OP, which i could use.
It weighs about 152 grain. Seems there will be a problem knowing where it will hit, when shot. Found a couple other shot cf bullets that weigh 162g, and 165 grain. Probably could use them to kinda establish the aim. If lucky, may be able to hit the jugs close to where i aim; don't know. Have done so many of these 'capture', the bullets piled up, and became a problem, so they were tossed.
Besides aim, another issue will be the bullet may fly completely through everything because there will be no expanding or fracturing, to use energy, and slow the bullet. Guess it doesn't matter if the bullet flies all the way through; we already know what it looks like. Another possible issue is the bullet not flying straight through, and exiting off to the side due to the jagged nose.
Perhaps it can be done. Today we have received about 10" of snow at the house; have shoveled the drive three times already, and headed out to do it again.
May, or may not be able to try tomorrow; supposed to be sunny. Don't think there will be any more snow in the hills than there is here.
Am worried most about the aim. The bullet without petals being lighter will be flying faster; who knows where it will hit? Will try.
_
It weighs about 152 grain. Seems there will be a problem knowing where it will hit, when shot. Found a couple other shot cf bullets that weigh 162g, and 165 grain. Probably could use them to kinda establish the aim. If lucky, may be able to hit the jugs close to where i aim; don't know. Have done so many of these 'capture', the bullets piled up, and became a problem, so they were tossed.
Besides aim, another issue will be the bullet may fly completely through everything because there will be no expanding or fracturing, to use energy, and slow the bullet. Guess it doesn't matter if the bullet flies all the way through; we already know what it looks like. Another possible issue is the bullet not flying straight through, and exiting off to the side due to the jagged nose.
Perhaps it can be done. Today we have received about 10" of snow at the house; have shoveled the drive three times already, and headed out to do it again.
May, or may not be able to try tomorrow; supposed to be sunny. Don't think there will be any more snow in the hills than there is here.
Am worried most about the aim. The bullet without petals being lighter will be flying faster; who knows where it will hit? Will try.
_
03-16-2018, 03:55 PM
#20
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,703
Still have the bullet pictured in the OP, which i could use.
It weighs about 152 grain. Seems there will be a problem knowing where it will hit, when shot. Found a couple other shot cf bullets that weigh 162g, and 165 grain. Probably could use them to kinda establish the aim. If lucky, may be able to hit the jugs close to where i aim; don't know. Have done so many of these 'capture', the bullets piled up, and became a problem, so they were tossed.
Besides aim, another issue will be the bullet may fly completely through everything because there will be no expanding or fracturing, to use energy, and slow the bullet. Guess it doesn't matter if the bullet flies all the way through; we already know what it looks like. Another possible issue is the bullet not flying straight through, and exiting off to the side due to the jagged nose.
Perhaps it can be done. Today we have received about 10" of snow at the house; have shoveled the drive three times already, and headed out to do it again.
May, or may not be able to try tomorrow; supposed to be sunny. Don't think there will be any more snow in the hills than there is here.
Am worried most about the aim. The bullet without petals being lighter will be flying faster; who knows where it will hit? Will try.
It weighs about 152 grain. Seems there will be a problem knowing where it will hit, when shot. Found a couple other shot cf bullets that weigh 162g, and 165 grain. Probably could use them to kinda establish the aim. If lucky, may be able to hit the jugs close to where i aim; don't know. Have done so many of these 'capture', the bullets piled up, and became a problem, so they were tossed.
Besides aim, another issue will be the bullet may fly completely through everything because there will be no expanding or fracturing, to use energy, and slow the bullet. Guess it doesn't matter if the bullet flies all the way through; we already know what it looks like. Another possible issue is the bullet not flying straight through, and exiting off to the side due to the jagged nose.
Perhaps it can be done. Today we have received about 10" of snow at the house; have shoveled the drive three times already, and headed out to do it again.
May, or may not be able to try tomorrow; supposed to be sunny. Don't think there will be any more snow in the hills than there is here.
Am worried most about the aim. The bullet without petals being lighter will be flying faster; who knows where it will hit? Will try.
If you look closely at the nose of the bullet it is ruff enough and sharp enough that it will direct water in various directions creating possibly a strong current of water that will also tear organs.
I am guessing (hoping) at 25 yards it will be accurate enough to get to the saw horse.
No snow here - just sunshine!
thanks