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Lehigh Spear

Old 03-14-2018, 09:01 AM
  #11  
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Originally Posted by bronko22000 View Post
My concern with this design is that the tip could be misaligned during loading and cause erratic flight similar to the steel rods place in armor piercing bullets. If those are not centered then accuracy falls off. Looks like a lot of trouble for a tip design that probably doesn't increase the BC enough.
Bronco, I am not sure how you could get the tip misaligned in the bullet. It is press fit into the copper bullet and it is really tight. I have actually tried to remove them from a bullet with a vise and vice grip. Didn't happen. I completely destroyed both in my attempt.

Remember also the tip is not the normal aluminum that we encounter. It is 7075-T6.

7075-T6 aluminum is a type of 7075 aluminum. It is furnished in the T6 temper. To achieve this temper, the metal is solution heat-treated and artificially aged until it meets standard mechanical property requirements.
As shown in Ron's test it would probably break before it bent.

Loading - some have speculated that loading might also be a problem but most normal spire type loading jags load the bullet with out touching the tip. I have used TC Super Jags, Spin Jag Originals, and of course a Lehigh loading jag. All of these load the bullet correctly.

I can also tell you that dropping them on the concrete floor in the garage, not a designed test, but it happened a couple of times when I was trying to remove the tip in the garage. Anyway the drop did not effect the tip or the bullet.

One other thing that arrived in my email this morning was some information of successful harvests using the lighter .451x237CF-LP bullet. Same bullet just smaller diameter and shorter so it can be shot from a 1-48 twist ML or in this a case tight bored smokeless ML's

A couple of guys wrote:

My Grandson Shot this Mouflon at 267 yds. With the prototype .451, 237 gr. bullet that you sent: created extreme internal damage lending itself to tremendous terminal performance. It also passed through but with the aid of the fragmentation, the animal was disabled immediately and expired immediately after.
My Son Shot this Axis Buck at 363 yds. With the prototype .451 MZ bullet in his Smokeless Muzzleloader, with an average velocity in his rifle: 2963 fps.
The spotter saw the deer bellied up immediately when it got shot: it too, passed through, but internal damage was massive.
Performed perfectly and to my utmost expectation.
Ron's tests are a great comparison tool and he spends a great amount of time and effort getting them done. After viewing his test of the bullet - I personally would have labeled it 'bullet failure'. Yet real-world testing of this bullet indicates a completely different result.

I think we all should keep that in mind.

Last edited by sabotloader; 03-14-2018 at 09:11 AM.
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Old 03-14-2018, 12:49 PM
  #12  
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Originally Posted by bronko22000 View Post
My concern with this design is that the tip could be misaligned during loading and cause erratic flight similar to the steel rods place in armor piercing bullets. If those are not centered then accuracy falls off. Looks like a lot of trouble for a tip design that probably doesn't increase the BC enough.
Testing has been done in rifle bullets to prove you wrong. Not positive but the testing was done between 100 and 200 yards if you do a search on it. Bullets were fouled down before shooting. Slits were cut out of bullets. And some were almost cut in half. Crazy testing and no real effects on accuracy at 100 and 200 yards. Not for sure, but i think it would be the same for a ML?? It sure would be easy to test if i wanted to. Just dont have a reason to right now.
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Old 03-14-2018, 02:14 PM
  #13  
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Bronco, forgot to give you an answer about BC

Lehigh 451x230CF-HP .160
Lehigh 451x237CF-LP .250

Lehigh 452x240CF-HP .180
Lehigh 452x247CF-LP .260

So I would say the tips do decent job bumping the actual G1 BC
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Old 03-14-2018, 03:12 PM
  #14  
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Originally Posted by sabotloader View Post

Quoting..."My Grandson Shot this Mouflon at 267 yds. With the prototype .451, 237 gr. bullet that you sent: created extreme internal damage lending itself to tremendous terminal performance. It also passed through but with the aid of the fragmentation, the animal was disabled immediately and expired immediately after.

My Son Shot this Axis Buck at 363 yds. With the prototype .451 MZ bullet in his Smokeless Muzzleloader, with an average velocity in his rifle: 2963 fps.
The spotter saw the deer bellied up immediately when it got shot: it too, passed through, but internal damage was massive.
Performed perfectly and to my utmost expectation."
Mike,

Those bullets that killed those animals were traveling a way faster than the bullet when we caught it. Results should be expected to be different. If the bullets that killed those animals had been traveling the same speed as the bullet we caught, the results may have been disappointing? Had the bullet we caught been traveling as fast as those killing bullets, you may not have considered the result to be a failure?

The information i posted in the OP was data we collected in the real world.














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Old 03-14-2018, 03:35 PM
  #15  
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I wouldnt put much faith in manfs BC info. Bullet companies have been known to stretch the true by a large margin.
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Old 03-14-2018, 04:49 PM
  #16  
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Well call me skeptical but I don't see that bullet design to be any better then what's already out there and I when I was talking about accuracy I was thinking of the tip getting slightly bend from improper loading which would cause an out of balance condition. Seems to me like there isn't enough support for the tip. Now we're talking an aluminum tip here not a lead tip. Lead tips fired from centerfires do melt some as do some of the older polymer tips.
I will looked into my imbalance concern and found this (which is what I was trying to say initially): http://riflebarrels.com/a-look-at-bu...nce-and-twist/ .

Last edited by bronko22000; 03-14-2018 at 04:55 PM.
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Old 03-14-2018, 05:39 PM
  #17  
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Originally Posted by bronko22000 View Post
Well call me skeptical but I don't see that bullet design to be any better then what's already out there and I when I was talking about accuracy I was thinking of the tip getting slightly bend from improper loading which would cause an out of balance condition.
Not sure you can bend them although I haven't tried. I honestly think they would break before bending. Because of the density and hardness of the copper they are inserted into - I am sure they would break before moving in the seat.

Seems to me like there isn't enough support for the tip. Now we're talking an aluminum tip here not a lead tip.
Correct it is aluminum but it is harden to a very high degree. It is more brittle than it is bendable.

Lead tips fired from centerfires do melt some as do some of the older polymer tips.
I will looked into my imbalance concern and found this (which is what I was trying to say initially): http://riflebarrels.com/a-look-at-bu...nce-and-twist/ .
I truly believe what you are saying about imbalance - just do not see a way that a normal person loading this bullet could create that condition.
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Old 03-14-2018, 05:49 PM
  #18  
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Originally Posted by ronlaughlin View Post
Mike,

Those bullets that killed those animals were traveling a way faster than the bullet when we caught it. Results should be expected to be different. If the bullets that killed those animals had been traveling the same speed as the bullet we caught, the results may have been disappointing? Had the bullet we caught been traveling as fast as those killing bullets, you may not have considered the result to be a failure?
Ron I agree with you these were traveling a lot faster out of the muzzle than your testing. Actually most hunting loads even with a normal ML are going to be traveling much faster. Your bullets are testing what might happen to a bullet shot through your medium @ around 1200fps.

I haven not computed the velocity of the bullet shot at 363 yards but you can bet it has slowed down to something much less than the 2963fps at the muzzle.

In addition Grouse and other eastern hunters have use the 247CF-LP for deer harvest this year and have reported the same 'Terminal Performance' they expect from a Lehigh Controlled Fracturing' bullet.

I do not know the ranges of those shots - Tom might come back to this thread and post those ranges - he keeps track of all that information.

The information i posted in the OP was data we collected in the real world.
Yes, they were shot in the 'real world' but not at a real world animal... there is a difference.
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Old 03-14-2018, 06:55 PM
  #19  
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Originally Posted by sabotloader View Post
........I haven not computed the velocity of the bullet shot at 363 yards.......
Well shucks.




















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