how big of a group would you settle for?
 

In 1984 I had a T/C renegade 1 in 48 twist. Shot the T/C Maxie and Pyrodex RS powder at first, when I switched to Pyrodex Select my groups shrunk to 2" @ 100 yards. I killed a lot of deer over the years with that gun and group. Then I don't remember why, but I tried shooting a Nosler .44 Cal 240 grain JSP with a T/C 3 piece sabot, I got consistent 1" groups @ 100 yards. I killed just as many deer. As a side note I used Bore Butter, over the years T/C replaced 3 barrels on the renegade because the group opened up to 4" @ 100. Getting the barrels replaced was like pulling teeth, but T/C came thru. But that is another story. I still have the gun and it still shoots just as good, I have a supply of the 3 piece sabots that T/C doesn't sell anymore. Since then I have moved on to inline muzzleloaders.
I have 5 inline muzzleloaders, with every one I would find a load, without a lot of range time, that would shoot 2" groups @ 100 yards. More than adequate to Kill a deer @ 100 yards consistently.
But I was spoiled with a one inch group I had out of the renegade, and I wanted it bad. I was not lucky enough to get a new out of the box that would shoot 1" to 1 1/2" groups with a load in a relatively small amount of time.
Over the years after spending a lot of money and range time, with every conceivable load variation, I scoured the forums looking for new bullets and advice all the time. I have my guns shooting my dream groups. If your guns would do it to begin with, how much time and money would you spend for the elusive 1 to 1 1/2 inch groups. As an added note, if you find the bullet you were looking for, and it turns out that for some reason it didn't have good terminal ballistics, such as not expanding all the time and penciling thru etc. It would be back to the drawing board!

I know a couple people who couldn't create a good group with a shotgun let alone a gun with a decent load, even scoped. Sometimes its not the gun at all but rather, the person shooting it. All of my guns have to be scoped, even the pistols, for me to get my 1" 5 shot groups at 100 yards but I don't spend time shooting over the 100 yard mark. I'm happy where I am at. I love hitting the range with a couple blackpowder guns in tow to mark up a target. It keeps me in touch with the guns. It keeps me in touch with my shooting style....I stay practiced. Lots of people shoot way better than I, yet I shoot way better than some others. I find that I am happy with what I can do and I don't compare myself to anyone. I also believe that I should always seek to improve myself. Guns have a finite limit. The shooter has a limitless amount of wiggle room. I'll spend a lifetime seeking to improve and money is not the object.

I rarely use my scope and because we hunt in non-man-made blinds, we often need a very quick, off-hand or free-style type shot.


I try to get 2" at 50 and 4-5" at 100 yard groups without a scope freeestyle. I use high rings, so I'm looking under that scope in many situations. Ideally, I want to be twice as close to bullseye, when using my scope..... 1-2" at 50 and 3" at 100...... all freestyle, 50% seated and 50% standing shots at the range.

Still worthwhile for me to hunt, despite a slight body shake and my eyes now 66 years-old -- having bi-focal lenses to look thru.

Not giving up and retiring from hunting just-yet.

I know what you mean, I'm 67

I'm 67 as well.

Well, I will be 81 my next birthday And I have to do things a bit different now but I am delighted to tell you I can still put up a tree stand and I took the biggest buck this year that I have ever got and I did it with a bow.
Don't worry about how old you are do what you can and enjoy life.

Dame I am afraid to clime a tree stand any more, keep on trucking

It seems like everyone had a "tack driver" muzzleloader today. Just ask them.

There are so many different contributing factors to shooting tight groups, especially consistently, they're hard to count.

The majority of the time, the shooter themselves are more problem than the rifle and load. To shoot exceptionally tight groups, the shooter has to do everything EXACT each time he/she loads the rifle and holds the rifle.
Even the slightest difference in hold of your trigger hand matters. Grip force matters and changing it can certainly affect group size. Trigger quality matters. Trigger finger placement on the trigger itself matters. Mounting to the shoulder matters. Shooting tight groups takes practice, even more practice for long range (200yds +) shooting.
Mounts, rings and certainly the scope matters. You don't actually witness many shooters making tiny size groups, even at 100yds, with a low power variable. Certainly quality components matter.

Consistently shooting tight (1" - MOA or less) groups at 100yds isn't as easy as some might suggest with their "tack drivers". It takes a LOT of practice, hundreds if not thousands of rounds down range, especially at long range distances.
There are just some shooters that are just naturals, while others struggle to some degree, be it age, eye sight, or components.

Lack of complete confidence hurts more shooters themselves than anything. Even the best of top shooters, will have a PP day if they dwell on a bad shot or a single days shooting. NOT thinking or remembering a bad day or shot, it taught in all the shooting schools. A shooter has to concentrate on the immediate moment and shot, not a single bad shot or day. Make the rifle an extension of your own body, not a separate object.

Speaking only for myself...... Its my intent to shoot 1" (MOA) or less groups at 100yds. I have complete confidence in the rifle I shoot or rifles I've used before. With that confidence level, it only leaves one variable...... me the shooter. Some days I get the bear, some days the bear gets me at 66 years young.

Hunter
 

To me as a hunter if I put every shot into the size of my fist I feel I’m ready to hunt I shoot with my hunting stuff on gloves in the cold/ hot I shoot freehand/ on a rest 50 yards and 100 I don’t worry about 1-2 inch groups

I know a guy that can shoot offhand 1" groups at 200yds. Any deer within 250yds is dead. LOL, yeah right. I laugh every time he goes on that rant. I honestly don't think he has a clue about how much his bullet drops at 250yds.

Personally, I strive for 1" groups at 100yds. Most of my guns will do that, assuming I do my part. I don't shoot nearly as much as I used to (or would like to) so doing my part becomes harder and harder it seems. Honestly, for a hunting ML... as long as they are all under 2", I'd be ok with it... but continue to work to try and make it better. I don't think I own a rifle right now that won't do 1.5" groups or better. I haven't even dialed in my newest rifle (X7) and its already shooting just over 1" groups with the first load I tried.

Most all of my hunting shots are under 100, and I usually try to shoot from a rest if possible. Interestingly, the two deer I shot this year were both offhand, about 50-60yds. And I actually made really good shots :)

I agree with that fist theory, however I want to know my gun is doing the best it can. That makes hitting in the fist easier to accomplish! :)

At 100 yards
 

At 100 yards I’m shooting a in-line with a scope i’m 57 :)

2" with a ML at 100 yards...Heck I'd be happy with 3-4". I'm still playing with my Accura V2 but I know it puts Barnes EZs into 1 1/2" consistently. But 4" @ 100 is still "good enough" for hunting. Not ideal but it will do the job if the shooter does his.
You see some of the guys on here shooting tiny groups at outlandish distances but those are the exception rather then the rule. And these guys spent quite a bit more for a ML with the ability to do that.
My hats off to them but more than I really need.

Well we all post pictures of our best groups, don't we. :D

My goal is two inches or less at 100 yards, but in the real world I'm happy with three inches with sabot shooters and four inches with round balls. I have several guns that will put five shots into a two inch group at 100 yards (on occasion :s2: ).

Mr. Bronkoski, I hate disagreeing with you but if I can't get any of my rifles to get better than 2.5" at 100 then that rifle will no longer belong to me. And while yes some of my smoke poles are in the upper atmosphere in cost, the majority of them are well within most anyone's budget. Any well made rifle should be easily expected to get within 2.5" groups but, as with pretty much any rifle being smoker or smokeless, you sometimes have to do a lot of looking for a load. I used to watch the old man get so mad he looked like he had a wild cherry for a head. But he rarely gave up on a rifle till he found that magic load that brought everything together. Sometimes it isn't a load but just a matter of replacing a wedge key or relieving a bit of material in the barrel channel or just tightening a screw. Sometimes one may want to really put a cleaning to a barrel with some JB as it might have some rough spots. But I have honestly found over the years that most of the time, it's the operator not the equipment causing poor groups. Especially with muzzleloaders. Shooting a smoker is a unique experience in my opinion. I was raised shooting them and have been at it around 40 or so years. And there is still much room for improvement in my skills. I find comparing CF rifles and traditional ML rifles to Traditional Archery and Compounds to be a close comparison. Lot of guys out there using Compounds if you put a long bow in their hands they would be totally lost. Now these inlines, which I have very little experience with, are much closer to CF's and are much much more forgiving to shoot than a sidelock of any sort but you still have some little hooks even with them such as consistent loading pressures and a few other things but it's worlds easier than our old smokers.

There is much more to hunting than shooting small groups. Some guys routinely shoot small groups but seldom kill thing because they are lousy hunters and trackers. Best hunter i know confirms the zero of his very nice Knight rifle before season opens by shooting a few rounds at a 100 yard target.


Since season opened this fall that hunter has killed seven deer, two elk, two antelope and a bunch of wild hogs. Despite a torn up knee i ain't done too bad myself: Managed to kill five deer with muzzleloaders this season.

[QUOTE=falcon;4324142]There is much more to hunting than shooting small groups. Some guys routinely shoot small groups but seldom kill thing because they are lousy hunters and trackers.....

Never seen a game animal with a bullseye on it except in a Far Side cartoon. "Bummer of a birthmark, Hal !"

They don't stay stationary for long either.

That said, confidence in your equipment and your shooting ability are paramount. Shoot the tightest groups both are capable of producing as one.

[QUOTE=rogerstv;4324158]To be quite frank, if more hunters would shoot at a spot on a deer, instead of AT the deer, there would be less tracking and more meat in the freezer.
I happen to be one of those guys that shoot small groups, yet I don't miss, wound or have to worry about tracking a deer. Its because I shoot at that spot and know where the bullet should pass through.

Regardless, and back to the question at hand, every time anyone shoots, he/she should plan on shooting better than the last time. Yes, it doesn't always happen that way, but IMO its the only way to look at it.

The criteria for my loads is sub 2" for all my muzzleloaders. My guns don't have scopes I am using peep sights. When I developed my paper patch loads I was 10 years younger and I could see a lot better. Back then I got enough sub 1" groups to know that my rifles and loads were there. Now days I don't shoot groups that much if at all. Once and a while at best. Also now days I spend most of my range time shooting off cross sticks and I also shoot steel targets. I am focusing on shooting the center of the target but the yardage might be 136 yards or 88, or 179, or 235. These yardages are not the normal 100, 150 200. Since my guns have already proven to be accurate, I practice how I hunt.
In these pictures my son is practicing for a muzzleloader Antelope hunt.





This is a few pictures of that hunt.

[QUOTE=hunters_life;4324045]Mr. Bronkoski, I hate disagreeing with you but if I can't get any of my rifles to get better than 2.5" at 100 then that rifle will no longer belong to me./QUOTE]

Actually HL you're not disagreeing with me. What I'm saying is that I'd be happy with 2" @ 100 if that's all my rifle would do. And 3-4" is, in reality, good enough for hunting with a ML where shots tend to be less than 100 yards (mostly a lot less). My only inline is my CVA Accura and I have it shooting 1 1/2" groups right now but still working with it. Over the last couple years I've acquired a goodly number of sidelocks both fast twist and slow. The only one I've played with past the 50 yard mark is my T/C-GM Hawken .45 shooting paper patched conicals (IdahoRon got me into this). I still have some tweaking to do with this by it is shooting 2" groups at 100 with the peep sights and these old eyes.

Got a buddy that'll chunk a 5 gallon bucket as far as he can throw it, if he hit the bucket he's good to go. kills a deer every year, go figure.

IMO that's a real lousy standard for accuracy! What does he use for a projectile - a rock!