how big of a group would you settle for?
12-26-2017, 06:26 AM
#1
Fork Horn
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 205
how big of a group would you settle for?
In 1984 I had a T/C renegade 1 in 48 twist. Shot the T/C Maxie and Pyrodex RS powder at first, when I switched to Pyrodex Select my groups shrunk to 2" @ 100 yards. I killed a lot of deer over the years with that gun and group. Then I don't remember why, but I tried shooting a Nosler .44 Cal 240 grain JSP with a T/C 3 piece sabot, I got consistent 1" groups @ 100 yards. I killed just as many deer. As a side note I used Bore Butter, over the years T/C replaced 3 barrels on the renegade because the group opened up to 4" @ 100. Getting the barrels replaced was like pulling teeth, but T/C came thru. But that is another story. I still have the gun and it still shoots just as good, I have a supply of the 3 piece sabots that T/C doesn't sell anymore. Since then I have moved on to inline muzzleloaders.
I have 5 inline muzzleloaders, with every one I would find a load, without a lot of range time, that would shoot 2" groups @ 100 yards. More than adequate to Kill a deer @ 100 yards consistently.
But I was spoiled with a one inch group I had out of the renegade, and I wanted it bad. I was not lucky enough to get a new out of the box that would shoot 1" to 1 1/2" groups with a load in a relatively small amount of time.
Over the years after spending a lot of money and range time, with every conceivable load variation, I scoured the forums looking for new bullets and advice all the time. I have my guns shooting my dream groups. If your guns would do it to begin with, how much time and money would you spend for the elusive 1 to 1 1/2 inch groups. As an added note, if you find the bullet you were looking for, and it turns out that for some reason it didn't have good terminal ballistics, such as not expanding all the time and penciling thru etc. It would be back to the drawing board!
I have 5 inline muzzleloaders, with every one I would find a load, without a lot of range time, that would shoot 2" groups @ 100 yards. More than adequate to Kill a deer @ 100 yards consistently.
But I was spoiled with a one inch group I had out of the renegade, and I wanted it bad. I was not lucky enough to get a new out of the box that would shoot 1" to 1 1/2" groups with a load in a relatively small amount of time.
Over the years after spending a lot of money and range time, with every conceivable load variation, I scoured the forums looking for new bullets and advice all the time. I have my guns shooting my dream groups. If your guns would do it to begin with, how much time and money would you spend for the elusive 1 to 1 1/2 inch groups. As an added note, if you find the bullet you were looking for, and it turns out that for some reason it didn't have good terminal ballistics, such as not expanding all the time and penciling thru etc. It would be back to the drawing board!
Last edited by d.winsor; 12-26-2017 at 06:51 AM.
12-26-2017, 07:04 AM
#2
Spike
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 64
I know a couple people who couldn't create a good group with a shotgun let alone a gun with a decent load, even scoped. Sometimes its not the gun at all but rather, the person shooting it. All of my guns have to be scoped, even the pistols, for me to get my 1" 5 shot groups at 100 yards but I don't spend time shooting over the 100 yard mark. I'm happy where I am at. I love hitting the range with a couple blackpowder guns in tow to mark up a target. It keeps me in touch with the guns. It keeps me in touch with my shooting style....I stay practiced. Lots of people shoot way better than I, yet I shoot way better than some others. I find that I am happy with what I can do and I don't compare myself to anyone. I also believe that I should always seek to improve myself. Guns have a finite limit. The shooter has a limitless amount of wiggle room. I'll spend a lifetime seeking to improve and money is not the object.
12-26-2017, 07:04 AM
#3
Fork Horn
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Southeast Michigan
Posts: 195
I rarely use my scope and because we hunt in non-man-made blinds, we often need a very quick, off-hand or free-style type shot.
I try to get 2" at 50 and 4-5" at 100 yard groups without a scope freeestyle. I use high rings, so I'm looking under that scope in many situations. Ideally, I want to be twice as close to bullseye, when using my scope..... 1-2" at 50 and 3" at 100...... all freestyle, 50% seated and 50% standing shots at the range.
Still worthwhile for me to hunt, despite a slight body shake and my eyes now 66 years-old -- having bi-focal lenses to look thru.
Not giving up and retiring from hunting just-yet.
I try to get 2" at 50 and 4-5" at 100 yard groups without a scope freeestyle. I use high rings, so I'm looking under that scope in many situations. Ideally, I want to be twice as close to bullseye, when using my scope..... 1-2" at 50 and 3" at 100...... all freestyle, 50% seated and 50% standing shots at the range.
Still worthwhile for me to hunt, despite a slight body shake and my eyes now 66 years-old -- having bi-focal lenses to look thru.
Not giving up and retiring from hunting just-yet.
Last edited by GoexBlackhorn; 12-26-2017 at 07:08 AM.
12-26-2017, 07:18 AM
#4
Fork Horn
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 205
I rarely use my scope and because we hunt in non-man-made blinds, we often need a very quick, off-hand or free-style type shot.
I try to get 2" at 50 and 4-5" at 100 yard groups without a scope freeestyle. I use high rings, so I'm looking under that scope in many situations. Ideally, I want to be twice as close to bullseye, when using my scope..... 1-2" at 50 and 3" at 100...... all freestyle, 50% seated and 50% standing shots at the range.
Still worthwhile for me to hunt, despite a slight body shake and my eyes now 66 years-old -- having bi-focal lenses to look thru.
Not giving up and retiring from hunting just-yet.
I try to get 2" at 50 and 4-5" at 100 yard groups without a scope freeestyle. I use high rings, so I'm looking under that scope in many situations. Ideally, I want to be twice as close to bullseye, when using my scope..... 1-2" at 50 and 3" at 100...... all freestyle, 50% seated and 50% standing shots at the range.
Still worthwhile for me to hunt, despite a slight body shake and my eyes now 66 years-old -- having bi-focal lenses to look thru.
Not giving up and retiring from hunting just-yet.
12-26-2017, 08:31 AM
#6
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 6,585
Well, I will be 81 my next birthday And I have to do things a bit different now but I am delighted to tell you I can still put up a tree stand and I took the biggest buck this year that I have ever got and I did it with a bow.
Don't worry about how old you are do what you can and enjoy life.
Don't worry about how old you are do what you can and enjoy life.
12-26-2017, 09:13 AM
#8
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Near a lake with no fish
Posts: 1,077
It seems like everyone had a "tack driver" muzzleloader today. Just ask them.
There are so many different contributing factors to shooting tight groups, especially consistently, they're hard to count.
The majority of the time, the shooter themselves are more problem than the rifle and load. To shoot exceptionally tight groups, the shooter has to do everything EXACT each time he/she loads the rifle and holds the rifle.
Even the slightest difference in hold of your trigger hand matters. Grip force matters and changing it can certainly affect group size. Trigger quality matters. Trigger finger placement on the trigger itself matters. Mounting to the shoulder matters. Shooting tight groups takes practice, even more practice for long range (200yds +) shooting.
Mounts, rings and certainly the scope matters. You don't actually witness many shooters making tiny size groups, even at 100yds, with a low power variable. Certainly quality components matter.
Consistently shooting tight (1" - MOA or less) groups at 100yds isn't as easy as some might suggest with their "tack drivers". It takes a LOT of practice, hundreds if not thousands of rounds down range, especially at long range distances.
There are just some shooters that are just naturals, while others struggle to some degree, be it age, eye sight, or components.
Lack of complete confidence hurts more shooters themselves than anything. Even the best of top shooters, will have a PP day if they dwell on a bad shot or a single days shooting. NOT thinking or remembering a bad day or shot, it taught in all the shooting schools. A shooter has to concentrate on the immediate moment and shot, not a single bad shot or day. Make the rifle an extension of your own body, not a separate object.
Speaking only for myself...... Its my intent to shoot 1" (MOA) or less groups at 100yds. I have complete confidence in the rifle I shoot or rifles I've used before. With that confidence level, it only leaves one variable...... me the shooter. Some days I get the bear, some days the bear gets me at 66 years young.
There are so many different contributing factors to shooting tight groups, especially consistently, they're hard to count.
The majority of the time, the shooter themselves are more problem than the rifle and load. To shoot exceptionally tight groups, the shooter has to do everything EXACT each time he/she loads the rifle and holds the rifle.
Even the slightest difference in hold of your trigger hand matters. Grip force matters and changing it can certainly affect group size. Trigger quality matters. Trigger finger placement on the trigger itself matters. Mounting to the shoulder matters. Shooting tight groups takes practice, even more practice for long range (200yds +) shooting.
Mounts, rings and certainly the scope matters. You don't actually witness many shooters making tiny size groups, even at 100yds, with a low power variable. Certainly quality components matter.
Consistently shooting tight (1" - MOA or less) groups at 100yds isn't as easy as some might suggest with their "tack drivers". It takes a LOT of practice, hundreds if not thousands of rounds down range, especially at long range distances.
There are just some shooters that are just naturals, while others struggle to some degree, be it age, eye sight, or components.
Lack of complete confidence hurts more shooters themselves than anything. Even the best of top shooters, will have a PP day if they dwell on a bad shot or a single days shooting. NOT thinking or remembering a bad day or shot, it taught in all the shooting schools. A shooter has to concentrate on the immediate moment and shot, not a single bad shot or day. Make the rifle an extension of your own body, not a separate object.
Speaking only for myself...... Its my intent to shoot 1" (MOA) or less groups at 100yds. I have complete confidence in the rifle I shoot or rifles I've used before. With that confidence level, it only leaves one variable...... me the shooter. Some days I get the bear, some days the bear gets me at 66 years young.
12-27-2017, 05:51 AM
#9
Typical Buck
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location:
Posts: 698
Hunter
To me as a hunter if I put every shot into the size of my fist I feel I’m ready to hunt I shoot with my hunting stuff on gloves in the cold/ hot I shoot freehand/ on a rest 50 yards and 100 I don’t worry about 1-2 inch groups
12-27-2017, 06:01 AM
#10
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Virginia / West Virginia
Posts: 4,906
I know a guy that can shoot offhand 1" groups at 200yds. Any deer within 250yds is dead. LOL, yeah right. I laugh every time he goes on that rant. I honestly don't think he has a clue about how much his bullet drops at 250yds.
Personally, I strive for 1" groups at 100yds. Most of my guns will do that, assuming I do my part. I don't shoot nearly as much as I used to (or would like to) so doing my part becomes harder and harder it seems. Honestly, for a hunting ML... as long as they are all under 2", I'd be ok with it... but continue to work to try and make it better. I don't think I own a rifle right now that won't do 1.5" groups or better. I haven't even dialed in my newest rifle (X7) and its already shooting just over 1" groups with the first load I tried.
Most all of my hunting shots are under 100, and I usually try to shoot from a rest if possible. Interestingly, the two deer I shot this year were both offhand, about 50-60yds. And I actually made really good shots
Personally, I strive for 1" groups at 100yds. Most of my guns will do that, assuming I do my part. I don't shoot nearly as much as I used to (or would like to) so doing my part becomes harder and harder it seems. Honestly, for a hunting ML... as long as they are all under 2", I'd be ok with it... but continue to work to try and make it better. I don't think I own a rifle right now that won't do 1.5" groups or better. I haven't even dialed in my newest rifle (X7) and its already shooting just over 1" groups with the first load I tried.
Most all of my hunting shots are under 100, and I usually try to shoot from a rest if possible. Interestingly, the two deer I shot this year were both offhand, about 50-60yds. And I actually made really good shots