Need advice from yall
05-27-2017, 03:18 PM
#22
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 21,193
To be more specific and I am sure some of you can remember the headaches I had... I got the Optima because I wanted to try blackhorn 209 in something other then my Knight Disc. Well the first range time I had so many misfires. I was using the original came with it breech plug, Winchester W209 primers, and of course the Black Horn.
Reported the terrible range experience and immediately I was told ... wrong breech plug. You need a special breech plug. So OK ... invested in the new breech plug. All happy to hit the range. Again, nothing but Misfires. Reported my results.
OK I was told ... the Winchester W209 primers were not hot enough. That was my problem. New primers I thought? Wow it needs a special plug and new primers? OK ... went and got some Remington STS and some CCI (as suggested).
New range day... gun went off fine ... for about six shots. Then more misfires? Reported my findings. Again the experts said, well you have to scrape the breech plug out with a drill bit every five or six shots. OK ... new plug, new primers, now a drill bit to scrap every lets say 10 shots.
New range day ... gun fired fine as long as I scraped the breech plug. But posted pictures of the blow back in the breech plug. I thought this was a clean powder? Again the experts told me how to fix it. You need O rings because the primers are too short or some such foolishness. So OK ... lets see, new plug, new primers, drill bit for scraping the breech plug, and now O rings. Got all that. Rifle shoots great with Black Horn 209.
One day for the heck of it I loaded Triple Seven powder in the Optima. It shot great. But I had to (like always) swab between shots. Rifle shot great groups, and the powder was cheaper and easier to find (actually in the stores here) where I lived. No ordering on line. So I swabbed the bore, while the barrel cooled (it was summer) and while I checked the target the barrel dried. Came back loaded and repeat. Had a blast.
Velocity information indicated that the difference in velocity between loose Triple Seven 2f and BlackHorn 209 was next to nothing. So why was I getting excited about a powder that needed a special breech plug, hotter primers, a drill bit to scrape the breech plug, and O rings to stop the blow back? Oh ya! Because I was told its the greatest powder of all times. As I said before, when it runs out ... vaya con dois.
But not to dampen the parade. If BlackHorn works for you, and swabbing is that important to you... then enjoy this great powder. My favorite powder is real black powder which cleans with water. Did I mention I can clean Triple Seven out of my rifle barrel with dish water. Black Horn you use cleaning products like you would for a modern centerfire as I was told it does not like water based cleaners. Again this is only my opinion and it pertains to me only. I am sure your experiences are much better.
Reported the terrible range experience and immediately I was told ... wrong breech plug. You need a special breech plug. So OK ... invested in the new breech plug. All happy to hit the range. Again, nothing but Misfires. Reported my results.
OK I was told ... the Winchester W209 primers were not hot enough. That was my problem. New primers I thought? Wow it needs a special plug and new primers? OK ... went and got some Remington STS and some CCI (as suggested).
New range day... gun went off fine ... for about six shots. Then more misfires? Reported my findings. Again the experts said, well you have to scrape the breech plug out with a drill bit every five or six shots. OK ... new plug, new primers, now a drill bit to scrap every lets say 10 shots.
New range day ... gun fired fine as long as I scraped the breech plug. But posted pictures of the blow back in the breech plug. I thought this was a clean powder? Again the experts told me how to fix it. You need O rings because the primers are too short or some such foolishness. So OK ... lets see, new plug, new primers, drill bit for scraping the breech plug, and now O rings. Got all that. Rifle shoots great with Black Horn 209.
One day for the heck of it I loaded Triple Seven powder in the Optima. It shot great. But I had to (like always) swab between shots. Rifle shot great groups, and the powder was cheaper and easier to find (actually in the stores here) where I lived. No ordering on line. So I swabbed the bore, while the barrel cooled (it was summer) and while I checked the target the barrel dried. Came back loaded and repeat. Had a blast.
Velocity information indicated that the difference in velocity between loose Triple Seven 2f and BlackHorn 209 was next to nothing. So why was I getting excited about a powder that needed a special breech plug, hotter primers, a drill bit to scrape the breech plug, and O rings to stop the blow back? Oh ya! Because I was told its the greatest powder of all times. As I said before, when it runs out ... vaya con dois.
But not to dampen the parade. If BlackHorn works for you, and swabbing is that important to you... then enjoy this great powder. My favorite powder is real black powder which cleans with water. Did I mention I can clean Triple Seven out of my rifle barrel with dish water. Black Horn you use cleaning products like you would for a modern centerfire as I was told it does not like water based cleaners. Again this is only my opinion and it pertains to me only. I am sure your experiences are much better.
05-27-2017, 03:56 PM
#23
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Colorado
Posts: 9,557
Cayugad.........All the info to shoot BH 209 was available to you before you bought the gun. Had you set it up for BH 209 to begin with you wouldn't have had any problems. If you would have bought the Western BH 209 breech plug it comes with the proper drill in a drill holder and the o-rings. Then just use the Federal 209 primers and you would have been all set.
T7 powder is ok, but can't compete with BH 209. It gives you crud rings, freezes up breech plugs, needs to be swabbed between shots, and isn't as accurate. It also doesn't get the same fps when heavier conicals are used.
With that said I like real black better than any other powder. Swiss especially. However, I like the old stuff in all that I do. Even fly fishing, but for a modern muzzleloader hunter, BH 209 is hard to beat.
T7 powder is ok, but can't compete with BH 209. It gives you crud rings, freezes up breech plugs, needs to be swabbed between shots, and isn't as accurate. It also doesn't get the same fps when heavier conicals are used.
With that said I like real black better than any other powder. Swiss especially. However, I like the old stuff in all that I do. Even fly fishing, but for a modern muzzleloader hunter, BH 209 is hard to beat.
05-27-2017, 04:15 PM
#24
Banned
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Boncarbo,Colorado
Posts: 9,186
Personally, After shooting all the BH209 that I have, its a head space problem where you lose to much of the primers gasses and the rifle misfires. I can take a factory cva plug, shim it or o ring the primer pocket and have zero trouble. Leave it in factory set up and you might experience a hang fire or complete misfire at times.
Just like with #11 caps and black powder subs. Vented nipples with those powders suck.
Just like with #11 caps and black powder subs. Vented nipples with those powders suck.
05-27-2017, 04:17 PM
#25
Typical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 984
Muley Hunter, you must be the Pete my dad was always laughing about saying you were one on here just as ornery as him. He always liked giving you the business for laughs. Like you, I like the old stuff myself. Mind you I am really enjoying that smokeless demon spawn muzzleloader the old man ordered up and I built as that thing is flat out a marvel to shoot. But my old sidelocks, both sparkers and cappers, just seem to always get my blood up. Just something about knowing all the work and experimentation you had to put in with an old sidelock when you pull the trigger on a nice deer that just brings it all home. All the new fancy inlines are great and all. They just don't make my blood run hot.
05-27-2017, 05:16 PM
#27
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 21,193
Cayugad.........All the info to shoot BH 209 was available to you before you bought the gun. Had you set it up for BH 209 to begin with you wouldn't have had any problems. If you would have bought the Western BH 209 breech plug it comes with the proper drill in a drill holder and the o-rings. Then just use the Federal 209 primers and you would have been all set.
T7 powder is ok, but can't compete with BH 209 It gives you crud rings, freezes up breech plugs, needs to be swabbed between shots, and isn't as accurate. It also doesn't get the same fps when heavier conicals are used.
With that said I like real black better than any other powder. Swiss especially. However, I like the old stuff in all that I do. Even fly fishing, but for a modern muzzleloader hunter, BH 209 is hard to beat.
T7 powder is ok, but can't compete with BH 209 It gives you crud rings, freezes up breech plugs, needs to be swabbed between shots, and isn't as accurate. It also doesn't get the same fps when heavier conicals are used.
With that said I like real black better than any other powder. Swiss especially. However, I like the old stuff in all that I do. Even fly fishing, but for a modern muzzleloader hunter, BH 209 is hard to beat.
As for Triple Seven being less accurate, I would have to disagree with that statement. Triple Seven is a very accurate powder. I find with Black Horn the first couple of shots, until the rifle is fowled, are not in my main group. This does not happen with T-7.
And we all know of the crud ring. As I said, I swab and its not upsetting at all. But since I actually take care of the breech plug properly with grease and tape, and clean my rifles immediately, even with Black Horn, after shooting ... I have never had a stuck plug. Never! In fact they come out just fine.
As for conicals velocity ... I think they FPS are so close and in some cases from Sabotloader's data, even faster velocities can be reached with T-7. And I never seem to get good accuracy with heavy conicals and Black Horn. I get much better accuracy with T-7 and conicals in my white rifles.
Don't you think its strange that you purchase a powder and then you need to get special plugs, drill bits, and O rings just to shoot it? Also take the two powders and then look at your gun rack and tell me how many can shoot Black Horn safely according to manufacturer's recommendations and then do the same with Triple Seven? Of all my rifles other then the flintlocks of course, I can shoot T-7. I can not say that about BlackHorn.
But as I said, if you like Black Horn then by all means shoot it. That's Great! But as I stated, these were my opinions and I would rather choose T-7 over Black Horn. And if I loose 50 fps on a projectile (which since it does not matter to me and I even doubt it) I can more then accept that too.
05-27-2017, 05:38 PM
#28
Fork Horn
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Pasco, Fl
Posts: 272
Actually Muley when I bought the Optima there was very little information about the quirks of BlackHorn 209. I technically was shooting Black Horn at the request of Western Powder before it was even on the market. And I did like the powder at first. But I fully expected the rifle to shoot it. One reason I was so surprised and then the forum played this guessing game about what the problem could be. The hotter primer was a real shock as many Black Horn shooters use the Winchester Primers which is what is in the stores around me.
As for Triple Seven being less accurate, I would have to disagree with that statement. Triple Seven is a very accurate powder. I find with Black Horn the first couple of shots, until the rifle is fowled, are not in my main group. This does not happen with T-7.
And we all know of the crud ring. As I said, I swab and its not upsetting at all. But since I actually take care of the breech plug properly with grease and tape, and clean my rifles immediately, even with Black Horn, after shooting ... I have never had a stuck plug. Never! In fact they come out just fine.
As for conicals velocity ... I think they FPS are so close and in some cases from Sabotloader's data, even faster velocities can be reached with T-7. And I never seem to get good accuracy with heavy conicals and Black Horn. I get much better accuracy with T-7 and conicals in my white rifles.
Don't you think its strange that you purchase a powder and then you need to get special plugs, drill bits, and O rings just to shoot it? Also take the two powders and then look at your gun rack and tell me how many can shoot Black Horn safely according to manufacturer's recommendations and then do the same with Triple Seven? Of all my rifles other then the flintlocks of course, I can shoot T-7. I can not say that about BlackHorn.
But as I said, if you like Black Horn then by all means shoot it. That's Great! But as I stated, these were my opinions and I would rather choose T-7 over Black Horn. And if I loose 50 fps on a projectile (which since it does not matter to me and I even doubt it) I can more then accept that too.
As for Triple Seven being less accurate, I would have to disagree with that statement. Triple Seven is a very accurate powder. I find with Black Horn the first couple of shots, until the rifle is fowled, are not in my main group. This does not happen with T-7.
And we all know of the crud ring. As I said, I swab and its not upsetting at all. But since I actually take care of the breech plug properly with grease and tape, and clean my rifles immediately, even with Black Horn, after shooting ... I have never had a stuck plug. Never! In fact they come out just fine.
As for conicals velocity ... I think they FPS are so close and in some cases from Sabotloader's data, even faster velocities can be reached with T-7. And I never seem to get good accuracy with heavy conicals and Black Horn. I get much better accuracy with T-7 and conicals in my white rifles.
Don't you think its strange that you purchase a powder and then you need to get special plugs, drill bits, and O rings just to shoot it? Also take the two powders and then look at your gun rack and tell me how many can shoot Black Horn safely according to manufacturer's recommendations and then do the same with Triple Seven? Of all my rifles other then the flintlocks of course, I can shoot T-7. I can not say that about BlackHorn.
But as I said, if you like Black Horn then by all means shoot it. That's Great! But as I stated, these were my opinions and I would rather choose T-7 over Black Horn. And if I loose 50 fps on a projectile (which since it does not matter to me and I even doubt it) I can more then accept that too.
05-27-2017, 05:40 PM
#29
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 21,193
No you don't. Because they make the T-7 pellets smaller so that they match the power of Pyrodex Pellets, 100 grains of loose, and 100 grains of black powder. If you were to load 100 grains of loose Triple Seven you would have a load approximately 10-15% stronger then 100 grains of T-7 pellets.
05-27-2017, 05:42 PM
#30
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Colorado
Posts: 9,557
There's a reason for the CVA not coming BH 209 ready. The majority shoot pellets. That's what the stock breech plug is set up for. CVA is catering to the majority. At least they offer a breech plug that works with BH 209 now. That wasn't always the case. I can shoot BH 209 out of a bone stock CVA, but everything needs to be perfect. The BH 209 BP makes it easier. We were shooting BH long before anybody made a special BP for it.
When I say T7 freezes BP's. I'm talking compared to BH 209. I run the BP bone dry when using BH 209 and it never sticks. I find that much easier than messing with grease and tape.
As for accuracy? I'm going by those who do a lot of bench shooting. (not me) It seems universal that BH 209 is the winner. I've also read multiple times that T7 and BH are pretty close in fps until you get to heavier conicals and then BH pulls away.
As I said though. I just shoot sidelocks now and Swiss. That doesn't mean I can't still offer help for those who are new to inlines. You made it sound like using BH 209 is a big deal. It really isn't. BH is basically a detuned smokeless powder. It needs some special attention to fire reliably. Some guns fire it bone stock. CVA isn't one of them unless you want to get picky about all the details to make it fire bone stock.
When I say T7 freezes BP's. I'm talking compared to BH 209. I run the BP bone dry when using BH 209 and it never sticks. I find that much easier than messing with grease and tape.
As for accuracy? I'm going by those who do a lot of bench shooting. (not me) It seems universal that BH 209 is the winner. I've also read multiple times that T7 and BH are pretty close in fps until you get to heavier conicals and then BH pulls away.
As I said though. I just shoot sidelocks now and Swiss. That doesn't mean I can't still offer help for those who are new to inlines. You made it sound like using BH 209 is a big deal. It really isn't. BH is basically a detuned smokeless powder. It needs some special attention to fire reliably. Some guns fire it bone stock. CVA isn't one of them unless you want to get picky about all the details to make it fire bone stock.
