need more knock down
 

I have t c black diamond extended range 50 cal I shoot 100 gr or 2 pellets a 240 gram t c magnum sabot my prob is I shoot deer they run for ever or go down and take forever to expire and takes extra shot I get good hits but lacking stopping power thinking about going to 150 gr and maybe try hornady bullits like to get some input thanks

How far away were the deer when you hit them, and how big was the exit wound relative to the entrance wound?

Where are you hitting them, deer hit through the lungs do not take forever to die.

one I hit shd fell on spot 30 yd another 40 yd shd they both fell on spot I have shot lot of deer and know lung shot is good but also know shd shoulder if you got rt load shoulder shot should put them down quick it ain t the gun or me got to be load I ck with t c they rec 150 gram with that bullit

no exit wounds that not rt killed buck once ran 100 yd dug bullet out of other shd

If the bullets you recovered expanded fine, you probably should start shooting them in the lungs. Even a deer shot in the shoulder can and often will run with broken limbs, if the spine has not been severed. That takes a high shoulder shot, where the spine meets the scapula.
Don't expect rifle cartridge performance out of a muzzleloader; there's a huge difference in velocity and "shock power" just isn't the same. Hydrostatic shock doesn't enter the picture even for many standard rifle rounds; the deer practically needs to be hit with a projectile going at least 2,400fps, something a muzzleloader even with 3 pellets of pyrodex cannot do at the muzzle.

True. My .450 Bushmaster will put a 250 grain bullet at 2250 FPS and is a deer hammer. On the other hand I can shoot a similar 250 grain bullet from a muzzleloader with 100 grains of powder at 1650 FPS.

I get 2,300fps from a BP Xpress using a 300gr bullet. However I'm also shoot a charge that mass produced rifle are not capable of.



Watch the video link posted above...

I'd increase the weight of the bullet to a 290gr or 300gr bullet. I'd also switch to T7 pellets, where you could try 2-T7M pellets for 120grs (Red box). DO NOT SHOOT 3 T7M (magnum RED BOX) PELLETS.
If you want to use 150grs, shoot the black box 50/50 pellets.
Barnes Expanders or Barnes T-EZ bullets work extremely well.

Shot placement is everything. My own preference is a top of the heart shot. If its high it will go through the lungs. Low and it takes out the heart. I've shot an awful lot of whitetail and even shot through the heart, can run. No two will react the same it seems.

I have the same rifle. And I would think that its all down to shot placement. Now I am not doubting your hits. But I have seen deer shot just a small amount back of the lungs run for 100 yards.

I shot a deer once in the lungs with a roundball and got a complete pass through. The deer ran 30 yards into the thicket (of course) and when I found her there was a gross looking foam out of her mouth. I am sure that was because I shut the lungs down.

If they are running off, I would change bullet weight or bullet style. Maybe something heavier. But I have little experience with sabots and bullets for taking deer. Every time I hunt with sabots and my favorite bullet, I never see a deer. Walk out with a round ball and they are all around me.

A 2 pellet load is a dog. 100gr by volume of BH209 would be a fair amount faster. Even 100gr of loose Triple7 would be noticeably faster than 2 pellets.

People seeking velocity should avoid pellets altogether. Unless you have one of the "Ultimates" from Remington or UF.

Blackhorn209 is quite capable of reaching around 2100fps with a 250gr bullet in many production muzzleloaders.

It appears the OP is talking about the Hornady 45 240gr bullet sold by T/C. That bullet is likely a XTP MAG and has a super thick jacket. Even thicker than many 45/70 bullet jackets. The 45cal MAGS are intended for 454 Casull or even faster rounds.

Simply changing to the 250gr XTP will solve lack of expansion or better yet use the Barnes 225-250gr XPB or 250gr Expander MZ. I shoot the 225gr XPB at over 2200fps in my custom build. Expansion is violent to say the least.

Bearbow one thing you have to realize is that most of the time you are not going to have a DRT on a deer with a muzzleloader. And running 30-40 yards is nothing. Even using a rapidly expanding bullet and more powder, unless you disrupt the nervous system (spine) you can expect a deer to run a little. Another thing to consider too is the attitude of the deer. Is it calm, alert or otherwise stressed.
I say put the bullet into the lungs and you'll have a dead deer.

A shoulder shot can take out only one lung. A deer can run a long ways like that. Even with a busted shoulder.

I'd advise you to take double lung shots.

I appreciate feed back just got into this networking and computer stuff learning spelling not good I tell everybody if I could spell I wouldnot have been in my plumbing truck 50 yrs lol maybe I need to regroup and try some of info you guys gave me tks

I am a trad bowhunter blk powder I like seems like I went to pellets there just a different in power want opions

Bearbow before you get confused with the talk of BlackHorn 209, our Black Diamonds CAN NOT SAFELY SHOOT THAT POWDER! I know, I tried and I dug the center of a primer out of my forehead just above the eye brow. So just to clarify that point with you.

The 100 grains of powder your shooting is fine for most deer hunting applications. I tried the 3 pellets in my BDXR and while it held a pretty good group, I just could not see the need for it. So I went to loose powder. I like to shoot real Black Powder or Triple Seven 2f in and around 90-115 grains. Depending on the sabot and bullet. One bullet I have discovered very accurate with the rifle is the .40 caliber 200 grain Shockwave in a dark blue sabot. I was told by some people that harvested deer, the bullet devastates deer size animals. I can't prove that as the deer have been most uncooperative in my area. But the accuracy of that bullet is AMAZING!

Another bullet combination I like (But the bullets are expensive) are the 250 grain Barnes MZ Expanders with 115 grains of black powder. Really have a lot of down range punch.



Another bullet that I was turned on to by the group (thanks much) is the 260 grain Scorpion Funnel Nose my by Hornady. Again I push them hard, 115 grains of powder (as was suggested to me) and their accuracy is very good.



Also with loose powder, this might sound strange, but I removed that 209 primer nipple and I use a #11 nipple instead. With loose powder I get excellent ignition and the blow back which this rifle is so famous for, is much less.

You don't need 150 gr of powder for quicker kills. My elk load is 90 gr of powder with a 350 gr bullet. That is with 777 or BH 209, so that is equivalent to about 105-108 gr of pyrodex/black powder. Bullet selection and placement are the key. I would try some of the bullets listed above with good track records.

Any load in the 100-115 range that is accurate and uses a good bullet will get the job done.

There are many variables but the most obvious problem in what you said is a magnum bullet with your load, going to 150 grain is not often a good answer as most guns loose accuracy before you get that far.
I would recommend going up 10 grains at a time until your groups tell you to back off.
As far as that bullet is concerned I did some testing on it and followed some tests other people did and decided not to use it. You might try Lehigh or barns or even XTP for better results

Yes!!!!!


Since 2000 nearly all my deer were killed with a muzzleloader, many with the TC Black Diamond. Be prepared for a deer shot through both lungs to run a ways. Sometimes a deer will bang flop but that's not common unless there is CNS involvement.


Last fall i killed a huge buck with my ,50 TC Black Diamond and a 250 grain SST bullet. Deliberately shot the deer in the shoulder because the property line was close by. That did not work so well because the deer hunched, took off and ran 70-80 yards-fast. Watched the deer run off and heard him crash.


Bullet did not exit and lungs were hardly damaged. There was a 2" diameter hole in the chest wall. Bullet fragments tore up some blood vessels. The deers chest cavity was full of blood.

IME: When used against deer and hogs, .50 and .54 caliber muzzleloaders are as deadly as a .30-06 and 150-180 grain bullets. Properly placed .50 and .54 caliber round balls are as deadly as saboted or conical bullets.

Right you are. :party0005:

I usually have better results shooting a deer behind the shoulder through the ribs rather than trying to shoot directly through the shoulder with a BP. There is a lot less muscle/bone there than in the shoulder. With a rifle I will shoot right through the shoulder and think nothing of it, but with a BP I try a bit farther back.

I got out of patched round balls a while back in my sidelocks and started using maxi balls. Accuracy increased, for me anyway, and they seemed to do a good bit more damage out to 100 yards. Only one of my sidelocks will accurately shoot saboted bullets worth spit, it's actually pretty good with the 250 grain XTP's keeping inside of an inch and a half at 100 and I have yet to have to track a deer further than 50 yards with either the Maxi balls or the XTP's. I tend to agree with Muley Hunter and the others on taking double lung shots over a shoulder shot. Less resistance and taking out both lungs will tend to put the drop on an animal quicker with the shock value. Not to mention less meat damage. Lots of good jerky meat on them shoulders.

FYI, this is a Barnes 290 gr T-EZ bullet which took a buck at 40/45 yards using 2 pellets of T7 shot out of a CVA Accura MR. Buck ran 20/30 yards before piling up.

cayugad got good info from everybody on my blk diamond from all going to try yours and falcons first believe we got same gun getting away from pellets and 209 primers am still thinking about what bullet thanks to all I will make batch of jerky and share lol

Bullet - that is the easy part... take a hard look at the Lehigh Defense offerings....


They are a building a new line of copper controlled fracturing bullets.


They have them in stock now the 452x265 CF





But for you the new 452x240 CF could really be the ticket.





These will become available real soon.


I shot some 451-230 CF's a day or two ago just as a preliminary experiment with a 1-48 twist Renegade... excellent results







This is a 75 yard target with open sights... #4 was more fault than the rifle - I forget when I use the set trigger how easy it is to pull the main trigger...


Try em you will like em!

sabotloader going try your bullet I use to use num 11 primers but went to 209 several yr ago I always throught more fire the better

Sometimes.

There really is not a lot of difference in the muzzle velocity created by a #11 versus a 209 even the mag 209's. But there is normally better reliability of a solid ignition with a 209 than a #11 if your powder may have been compromised in some form.

I have to use caps during our ML season here in Idaho and to help with ignition especially in cold weather I shoot T7-3f. With a 209 I use T7-2f. I am not a real fan of BH-209 powder even though it is a very good powder.

we have a 2 day blk powder around oct 20 here in ky them 9 days in dec blk powder only 16 day modern fire arms nov and blk powder is allowed archery sept 3 to jan 15 I shot a buck with my blk powder few yr ago it ran down hill a coyote came in back tracking blood trail I shot him went to get deer and found it covered with leaves I belive was yote was told later they don t cover food was a bobcat

my Thompson center black diamond had problem with deer recovery posted for advice got a lot of good feed back finally went to 3 pellets like manual says is max with that 240g sabot I use I was using 2 pellets group good my bro got same gun and uses same load I did not know this and he puts them down come oct here in ky hope to air it out lol

In my opinion if a guy wants knock down you need to use a bigger hammer.
This old girl had been shot before.



I shot her as she was coming to a call. I shot her st about 50 yards.









I hunt is places that are public land but there is private land right there. If an animal runs you might not get it because land owners don't allow trespass for anything.
Knocking them down right now is the best way.
This elk was shot with a Paper Patched Lee 500 S&W bullet weighing 458 grains. The bullet is slightly hardened to about 6 or 7 BHN. The bullet was found in the flank. She was not knocked off her feet but she fell in less that 10 yards. I only use 80 grains of Pyrodex P.

Its the magnum, that is a very tuff bullet, I doubt its opening properly with only 100 grains of Pyrodex.
If you drill a neat round hole through deer even through both lungs and its a well placed shot they will run a long way.
The velocity also could be improved, I suggest you look at the 250 grain Shock Wave or the 250 grain Deep curl and try their accuracy with 110 to 130 grains of Pyrodex and use the most accurate load. Forget the 150 grain load as it is only accurate out of a few guns and therefor try it after all else fails.

:( all that wasted blood shot shoulder. #1 reason I will not take a shoulder shot. To much wasted meat.

Just shoot another one to make up the difference.........

In some instances with rifle/bullets I like to stay off the shoulder. In others, like Idahorons, I like to take all measures I can to anchor the animal right there by busting both shoulders. So I do my best to use a bullet I know can handle both situations no matter how close the animal is. Max loading any BP rifle will usually result in poor performance in grouping and very little consistency in your first shot performance. My suggestion would be to ditch the pellets and go to loose powder. Next would be to try out the Lehigh bullets as Sabotloader suggested and if they don't shoot well, try out the 250gr or 300gr XTP bullets. In that black diamond of yours Bearbow, I would start out at 90gr with either of those bullets and work up to find where you are getting the best cold clean barrel consistency. Work it up by 5 grain increments. Grouping your rifles at the range is all well and good, but you aren't shooting for consistent groups at an animal. You are shooting that very first shot. So you need to know exactly where that very first shot is going to consistently hit.

i agree. Last fall i deliberately shot a big buck in the shoulder because of the close proximity of the property line, creek, etc. But the buck ran the other way for 80 yards and i ruined a lot of meat.


Quite often a lung shot deer will die within a few yards; sometimes they bang flop. A deer shot through both lungs seldom runs more than 75 yards. Putting the bullet in the right place is paramount. So called "premium" bullets do not transform all gut shots into bang flops.


For six or seven years all my deer and hogs were killed with the 240 grain .430 XTP bullet. Never lost an animal. One fall i went through a period of rushing my shots and gut shot some animals. Had some long dragging jobs as a result.

Ive taken high shoulder/spine shots and i hate taking them. They can make a horrible mess even with a little 40cal monolithic bullet.

Deleted by JW you have only shot one elk in your life you have no clue what it take to anchor an elk DRT. Go get some real world experience in killing elk then come back and tell me how to anchor an elk DRT. If you have a chance to lose your animal if it is not DRT you have to do what you have to do. edited ny JW flaming

Falcon, with some deer and elk you are absolutely correct about lung shots. With others you couldn't be more wrong. It is all pretty much up to that animal shot on that day. I've seen deer and elk both go a lot longer than 75 yards with a perfect double lung shot. And I've seen both drop right there or very close. What I have never seen is either go very far at all with both shoulders taken out. A couple of pounds of bloodshot meat is well worth it when you are faced with the possibility of losing the animal due to other hunters or it crossing onto property you can't go after it on.
MountainDevil54, you've only taken one elk in your life? Here I was under the impression you were supposed to be some kind of expert on elk hunting given you live in one of the best elk states in the country. You are always talking about how this bullet or that performs on elk. But you have no real world self experience? That's good to know.deleted by JW

Read my post again: " A deer shot through both lungs seldom runs more than 75 yards.' The key word is seldom and i stand by my statement.

For many years i tracked and recovered wounded deer and elk for other hunters. Yep, i've seen a very few deer and elk shot through both lungs go 200 yards. Most of the deer and elk i recovered for other hunters had been gut shot.


For the most part i will continue to shoot deer in the boiler room like i have for the past 65 years. It works for me and i don't like to ruin meat.

No, I have taken many more elk than the one ron claims.

Thats just a waste of blood shot meat and if you cant kill an elk with a double lung shot and that huge bullet, time to change bullets IMO.

Hunterslife, you sure are arrogant my friend.