Yes, that's a really ugly deal.

That little doe was hit with a 185gr 40cal at around 120-140 yard IIRC. Load was either 110gr or 120gr of BH209. Closeup of the exit wound is far more graphic than what i posted.

The bullet went higher than intended. The deer dropped instantly with barely a twitch.

That round was probably still trucking along pretty quick there GM54-120. With my Maxis that I make a little on the harder side, they open up enough to impart a good bit of energy into the vitals and I launch them with just enough speed to bust through any part of the animal out to 100 yards. If I don't absolutely have to anchor the animal right there I will go for tucking behind the shoulder which will sometimes drop them right there, sometimes not but if I am hunting along a property line and need to put that animal down right there, I know my bullets will bust through both shoulders and it really doesn't blood shot meat as much as those little buggers you are cooking off fast. You can actually eat right up to the hole on my shoulder shot animals that I hit past 40 yards. 40 yards and in?, not so much usually. Heavy and slow seems to work best, for me anyway, with my smokers.

Couple years ago i was sitting in a blind in deer gun season. The .50 Encore was loaded with a 250 grain Shockwave bullet. Luckily, i also had a Remington 700 in .308 in the blind.


Big doe showed up about 80 yards in front. Shot the animal with Encore. Doe lay still 30-45 seconds then jumped up. i shot her with the .308 and she went down to stay.


The muzzleloader bullet hit the deer about where yours hit. Bullet did not expand and the wound was much smaller. But it did ruin some meat.

I am guessing the 40x185 was a Bloodline bullet - that would account for the wound channel. But even then the location of the hit caused more damage than was/is normal.

It's not a long range bullet but muzzleloading is not a long range game... I would go with the 405 grain Powerbelt Aerotip... now that's a bang flop bullet! Even on a grizzly...:party0005::party0005::party0005:

Hitting a brown bear in the spine, and yes that was a spinal interruption high shoulder shot on the brown bear you are talking about, with a 405 grain anything will be bang flop. How about you show us the real world results of shoulder hit or even rib hit elk or whitetail from those bullets you love to advertise for flint head. If a fella has to go to over 400 grains of bullet to get good performance on whitetail, they edited for language - JW sure need to switch bullets. That's just a plain fact.

You're right, its certainly not a long range bullet.
But you're wrong on muzzleloading not being a long range game. You're just never going to get to long range with a CVA, especially with that bullet.

Just wondering, what do y'all define as long range in reference to muzzleloaders?

Its most commonly referred to as distance beyond 200yds.

Getting close is what makes muzzleloading fun to me... 100 yards or so is the longest shot I've ever taken,,, most have been less than 50. I have my Accura set up this year with 110 grains of Black MZ and a 270 grain Powerbelt Platinum... this will be a shoulder busting load for sure!

The vast majority of my muzzleloader shots are <60 yards. i don't practice for shots longer than 100 yards. In the past i have made three longer shots on deer and hogs. One at 226 yards, one at 192 yards and another at 170+ yards.

Makes a difference which part of the country one hunts.

Thousands of Midwest hunters hunt over agricultural fields, where getting close isn't always an option. Some might have a blind or stand setup in a fence row and watch more whitetail than harvest them. Maybe 100 acres of beans on one side, another 100 acres of corn on the other. Long shots in those situations can be common with practiced seasoned long range shooters.
The part of the country hunted, is a huge contributing factor in how hunters hunt, the distances shot, and it is very often over looked by others making recommendations.

To be completely fair, Falcon and I both hunt areas where shots over 150 yards would be common unless you wanted to stalk up on your quarry or really pattern them well to set up ambush points. Which, from what I gather from Falcon, he and I both do. I grew up Eastern hunting mainly heavily wooded areas where my long range shots would be 100 yards. But whenever we would go out west to hunt, I would have shot opportunities out to 1000 yards. As BarnesAddict put it, long range is definitely dependent upon your location for definition. What some Eastern hunters consider long range, a Western hunter wouldn't even consider that a chip shot.

One parameter, in my opinion, that determines what long range is, is the power of optic allowed by regulation. If only 1X optic, or iron sight is allowed; 150 yard is long range, long range indeed. If 4X or more optic is allowed, in my opinion, long range becomes 250 yard.

Another parameter that determines the meaning of long range is wind. Unless one practices shooting though wind, one has no idea how muzzle loader bullets of all shapes are affected by wind, even just 200 yard out. Wind flags aren't common out there whilst hunting. Wind truly limits the range of a muzzle loader hunter.

Understanding ballistics is a factor that extends long range. Personally, my longest kill was accomplished, because in the early morning there was no wind, and i was able to 'dial' elevation for range, after reading distance with the laser.













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Definitely.


That's been my experience. Rather, my sister's experience. I helped her take down a long coveted buck at 221 yards on opening morning of muzzleloader season after testing the Pro Hunter's ballistics, ranging the deer, and telling her which BDC circle to use at that distance. I wouldn't have let her taken the shot if the wind had picked up, though.

Well to get back to the original topic of KNOCK DOWN power ,I am inclined to doubt that there is any such thing.
There is FPS of energy, and brain and spine hits that kill instantly, there is also hydrostatic shock and when the mushrooming bullet is placed on the group of arteries over the top of the heart but very close to it or on the carotid artery in the neck, you can get an instant kill, especially if the game has not been startled.
I realize that I have opened a can of worms, but this is a subject that could use a bit of discussion and it is in line with the original topic.

I think there are a lot of hunters that rather they want to believe it or not, admit it or not, rush shots at game. One thing for pretty much certain, proper shot placement will put meat on the table. Game can do some pretty questionable things when struck with a bullet, and after decades of putting meat on the table, nothing surprises me any more.
One that still makes me think today, was one I had a pass thru on, taking out the entire top of the heart, yet that whitetail still ran at minimum 100yds, running directly into a fence. The fence not only stopped the deer, but after it stretched, it threw the deer back 20yds. Laid there GYD.
Now I will say that there are good bullets, but there are also worthless bullets. There are good longer range bullets and good medium range bullets. Proper shot placement is the key, along with excellent penetration and consistent bullet performance.
Now there are some who don't like or care much for target shooting. This I will say, practice makes a great start. Confidence corrects mistakes. Practice + confidence = meat on the table.

I have had that experience several times, my aim is for just above the heart but it is s precise place and if I hit a bit low into the top of the heart they run flat out for a fair distance. I think hitting the heart must release all the adrenaline in them. On the other hand if I hit that knot of arteries right above the heart and they have not been spooked they drop right there.

Lemoyne, you are correct. Unless you are talking about something a lot bigger than a hunting round bullets do not knock animals off their feet. Perhaps in the movies they do. What the people making the movies don't know is that if the bullet lifted a person off their feet or knocked them over the shooter would also go down because for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. If you hit an animal in the right place it will get real sick and fall down, sudden loss of blood pressure, severed spine etc. Knock down power is a term we shouldn't use but most people do.

The reason this statement isn't true, is because the rifle has so very much more mass than the bullet, thus the 'equal' reaction has a way way more energy going to the bullet.......and.......actually the shooter isn't much a part of the reaction between the bullet, and the victim.

The equal, and opposite reaction is between the shooter/rifle, and the bullet/burnt powder. This is why there is recoil. Luckily for us shooters, the bullet gets a way more energy than the shooter, or we would suffer too much damage to get off a second shot, maybe ever.



:D


















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Yes that is a common mistake that has been proliferated by that show Myth Busters. Any mass with speed has more energy on impact. You don't actually think you are on the receiving end of 11,000ft#'s of energy when you shoot a .50 BMG do you? If you were, well, it would only be once. Look at the slow motion films of deer getting hit by a 12 gauge slug from around 70 yards out. Damn near folds the deer in half. And if you are wearing body armor, getting hit by a 12 gauge slug will damn sure knock you off your feet as well as break some ribs.

I have absolutely knocked animals off their feet. I have seen it many times. Not Hollywood throw them a dozen feet. But DRT Bang flop. Done it many times.

I would consider this buck as "Knocked Down - Bang Flop"


When I shot him he sprung directly up off the ground and came down limp and dead - no movement at all

Yeah the Hollywood crap is just that, crap. But there is nowhere near the energy at the stock end of a shot as there is on the muzzle end. If that were the case, anyone shooting a rifle would be dead. Yes there is the initial mass put into motion recoil but there are a couple of more factors that are put into play. Speed is an energy multiplier.

A wound or a miss? WTH? :confused0024:

About one hour after meeting him, i watched MountainDevil54 drill a 175-200 pound sow through the center of the heart. After hunting several days with MD54 i can attest to the fact that he is a good hunter.

MD, why would you want to hunt with someone who talks to you the way he did and calls you a liar. I wouldn't hunt with him if he paid the freight for me! Using pictures posted is a ridiculous barometer to judge if someone has killed game. While I post pictures, I haven't posted pictures of all the game I killed because as many times as I remember the camera, I forget to put it in my backpack. This thread is about someone believing they need a better projectile to take big game, not about who is or is not what they say they are in the hunting world.

I was a little surprised by all this due to the fact I simply stated that shoulder shots waste good meat. If it could do that much damage to the shoulder, clearly, it would work on a lung shot and save a lot of meat. That was just my view anyway.

I know how to anchor game and you do not have to shoot on the shoulder to do it. You appear to be a legend in your own mind and anyone who doesn't do what you do is wrong in your sketchy opinion. Problem is it is only your opinion and not fact. I have been killing deer for almost 60 years and I have killed more big game than deer. I don't know what your problem is but you are not the expert you insist that you are and your posts are obnoxious and insulting and show that you feel a need to prove and insist that your way is the only way. Hate to tell you, it isn't. What satisfies you is not necessarily what satisfies other hunters and your way isn't the only way and no one has to prove anything to you, in fact since you are the one bloviating on your expertise, it is up to you to prove that your way is the best way. Something you will not be able to do

I wish you luck on your hunt I do hope you get all that you deserve.

thank you kindly. I think my 50/50 ball will do the job fine.

Feel the love. My only real peeve, so to speak, is people over extending their abilities or their equipment's abilities. If you are going to use a round ball, stay within that bullets effective range and stay off the shoulder. If you are going to use a fishing sinker powerbelt, stay off the shoulder. It isn't you that has to suffer a painful injury and more than likely a slow death. It is the game which you are shooting at that has to suffer from your ego. I love traditional equipment more than most. But I was raised to respect the game which I am after and taught to give that animal the quickest death I can deliver, not allowing it to suffer needlessly. PRB can and has delivered that for a few centuries now. But always respect the limitations of that equipment of which there are many.
The old man used to blast at me constantly for using PRB but he always had to admit I always keep to that rule. Never shot a big game animal past 100 yards, most were around 50-60, with them and always took a clean shot. If I didn't have it in that range, it walked. Never let my ego surpass my equipment's abilities.

Well said. I was always taught to aim dead center, but those heart shots sure do bring them down quick when you pull them off, don't they?

Gentlemen, I think the best thing to do is for both of you to go to the other's profile and add him to your "ignore" list.

Thread is locked as a few have gotten off track.

JW

Quite a Flame war here boys.
 

This thread is now open.

I went into editing and found deleting entire posts was far better.

Your posts are not gone. Administrators and Moderators can still see them but a normal user can not. So complain away. I have nothing to hide and no iron in this fire other than if you want to kill a fantastic forum keep it up!

Some time out cards have been handed out as it takes two to dance. Sometimes more.

I haven't been around much as of late. In the past when I did visit all seemed fine under the leadership of cayugad.

And I see cayugad has not posted in almost 2 months!
I hope he is OK.

But I remind anyone to go back and read our forum rules.
This is not a democracy here IB owns it.

Before you hit that Post button ask yourself would this be better served as a Private Message (PM) then use it! Keep to the topic please.

Again

IF You have a problem with me or anyone else report it.
If you get no answer KEEP REPORTING IT!

I absolutely hate editing! But I will.

Geez

Dave.......JW

season opens oct 21 made changes in ammo ready to go

I usually take 4 or 5 deer a year, most with a bow or crossbow I have found that placing your shot makes all the difference. In my experience a heart shot will often run as much as 100 yards so will a double lung shot; but I have found that placing the shot, bow or gun square on the knot of arteries just over the top of the heart will limit the distance run to about 35 or 40 yards max with a bow, and will often drop them on the spot with a muzzle loader. I realize this is a small area and requires a carful shot and a reasonable knowledge of anatomy but the results are worth it.