BarnesAddict

I don't necessarily agree. First, shooters need to understand that rather a rifle costs $2k, $1k, or $600, you first have to learn to shoot it accurately. You can't shoot 10 or 15 times a year, even with a $10,000 rifle and expect to get the rifle's full potential. Its not going to happen.

Second, in the short time I've attended the matches at Friendship, you see new shooters come for the first time and learn, then come back the next year and shoot much higher scores. Its not because they traded in their $600 rifle for a $2k rifle, its because they enjoyed the match so much, learned, practiced more and became more confident. It gives them something to strive towards.

I totally agree with Grouse on the Mountaineer too. I darn near bought one and still may. Give me one of those rifles, allow me put the scope of my choice on top it, a month to get used to the rifle and develop my personal load, and I'll shoot it no less than my Ultimate. I've already done exactly that with Encore platform rifles.

Although I'm probably wrong speaking for/about someone else, but hand Bestill a CVA Wolf or T/C Impact and watch what he can get out of either. You'll never believe what he could do with either of those rifles, and unless someone actually witnessed him doing it, they'd swear it couldn't have been with either of the mentioned rifles. He's a top shot, period.
Speaking of Bestill, he's also one of the reasons that I want to continue to attend the match at Friendship. Why? Its because he gives me the initiative to try and improve myself. He makes me a better shooter and makes me strive for more confidence in myself. I really don't think he realizes how his shooting inspires others to become better.

So like all things new and first starting out, not only will rules change, but IMO more people will be willing to attend. Rifle classifications will change. If we let the first time play out, things WILL change in the future. Asking for things to be completely perfect immediately, is a very tall task. We should all be extremely thankful that an organization is willing to try, which in turn, may give other states and organizations the initiative to start. You have to start somewhere........

BarnesAddict

If you go back and read what I've already written, I believe I've already stated that the "standard" muzzleloader produced by Hankins, is a "Limited Production Rifle", and if its shot using BP or a BPS, it should be legal in any shoot. And by the way, a Hankins rifle won the Nationals at Friendship last year, with as close to a perfect score as you can get without actually being perfect.

Now about Luke..... If Luke has a standard rifle build, one that he markets like Hankins, that he sells as a standard build rifle, and if the rifle is shot using BP or BPS, you'll get no argument from me in any match.

However, you will get other shooters talking if you throw on a bench rest dedicated stock. But if its their standard build rifle, shooting only BP or BPS, why wouldn't it be ok?

It also goes back to another thing I wrote....... Some organization, rather it be the NRA or NMLRA, needs to clearly define what is and what is not a inline custom rifle. We can't agree on the time of day on the internet.

Gm54-120

Chaded the lines are certainly blury on this topic. Take a Sharps rifle for instance.

Shiloh Sharps makes EVERYTHING in house including the barrel. It can takes years to get one after ordering. They are considered the pinnacle of Sharps rifles.

C. Sharps. Slightly less desirable than a Shiloh and they used Badger and/or GM barrels. Last i heard they can only get GM barrels now. These can also take well over a year to get after ordering

Pedersoli. They make a Sharps rifle and i can walk into many outlets and buy one off the rack.

These are just to name the most popular brands (more or less). The first 2 are certainly better made but are they customs? I think its completely safe to say the Pedersoli is a production rifle. The other two well......its a tough call even if you buy a base model with no options.

Gm54-120

And Doug took a lot of flack from some shooters over the rifle he used even though it was within the rules. He took so much flack he got a Knight 500 and was super concerned about even upgrading the breach plug to a Lehigh or Bestill plug.

BarnesAddict

I'd have answered quicker, but I went to the bench and sent 20 light loads.

I fully understand what Doug put up with. I've communicated with him many times, prior to and after the Nationals. We've actually shared quite a little.

Now.............

See! This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about and have been talking about. Nobody can even agree on the dang the time of day.
Doug shot within the existing rules and I don't care if he shot a BB gun and cleaned everyone's clock, as long as his rifle met the rules, let the other people bitc. Its exactly what's happening here and now over the Ultimate, realize it or not. You can not get people in person to agree what is a custom. How do you suppose it'll ever get agreed to on the internet??????

So until an organization like the NRA or NMLRA comes up with a DEFINED rule for inline rifles, it'll continue to remain up to interpretation by each single individual. It gets no where but continued debate.

Now what I think happened for the Friendship match that is actually the fairest and best process yet, was that they matched a shooter's ability with a classification, based on his/her previous score.
They are: Sharpshooter, Expert, Master

There's a 1st place winner for each classification. Everyone starts in Sharpshooter and based on their score works up in classification. Can someone sandbag? Yup, once. But an honest shooter who knows he/she can shoot better, can ask to be placed in Expert or Master. IMO the Nationals should be the same way, and if a shooter has never shot before, maybe make them qualify for classification.
The different classifications of shooters allows a winner for all classifications and regardless of his/her type rifle, shoots within his/her capabilities with others in the same class. That IMO is better than the custom/production debate. IMO more fair for all.

Problem is, no one is taking the initiative to completely resolve the concern.

Please excuse me. I can come back to play after I clean my muzzleloader LOL

52bore

Wow, long winded responses with questionable facts, sounds like CNN reporting.

Doug: Intersting that I was there later in the week at the National Championship (after Doug had left) and I shot with Jeff, Blake, Jason, Bob, etc. the rest of the week and no on even mentioned negativity had occurred towards Doug. We all just new we needed to shoot well to beat his score. I read it later on MML, PM Doug apologizing that some incident with someone (don't know who) had occurred. He shrugged it off as it was his fault for shooting an overload and said next time he'd be at 120. I felt, he knew his hot load may have been part of the issue. Actually, it's those over MAX loads have been (and still are) the source of discussion pertaining to load safety on the range, which started last spring in the May Match.
So, 'the incident' seemed to be isolated to most likely a sidelock fan, considering there are only about 20-30 in-line shooters to 900+ sidelock shooter.

NRA/NMLRA: It will be the NMLRA as the NRA recognized them as authority in ML. Like anything new, there are growing pains and things never move as fast as one wants.

So, you drama queens from CNN, you're just showing your ignorance.
As Elmer Keith stated: 'Hell I was there'; and I know you were not.

Grouse45

When you start talking about drama you should read your own post's. On Modern Muzzleloader you said Barnes/Encore was talking to the board about this current ML shoot and if he could use the Ultimate. Like so what? He has every right to confirm he's within the rules. And on this board you brought up a possible over load that most people don't even know about in the nationals at the NRMLA?? Talk about CNN and fake news?? Your the perfect example of it all. Other then we were all talking about whats considered a production ML and custom ML. And we all have are opinions and differences. But you are obviously only interested in unneccasary gossip and being a real detriment to the ML shoots and the sport of Muzzleloading.

52bore

Here is my post on MML...

Re: You have to start somewhere....
by 52Bore » Sun Mar 19, 2017 5:38 pm

1st - glad to see anyone host a ML match of any kind.
For this match, it seems that holding in conjunction with a BPCR match makes some since (LRML has been that way in many matches). But, since it's a mid-range BPCR match, I assume it follows the NRA rules. If so, the ML match should follow the NMLRA rules (it appears other than the 'Sabot Only' some things do as well as the 100 yard target).
Did you happen to mention this in your discussions with the board?

52bore

When shooters walk off the line when overloaded rifles start shooting - the organization notices.
Just ask the President.