BarnesAddict

IMO...... you should be able to shoot your NULA, using BP or BPS in any match as a limited production rifle. I'd stand by the Gunwerks standard rifle, only if it is shot with BP or BPS, as a limited production rifle. The rifle Hankins builds as his standard, no options, using BP or BPS is a limited production build. As well as the Ultimate BP Xpress. I'll also throw the Knight 500 in using BP or BPS, as a limited produced rifle.

Also, I'm inclined to believe.... each one of those manufacturers has an FFL Manufacturer's license, each carrying a TON of liability insurance. Each one of these mentioned manufacturers provide an owners manual, which indicates maximum charges. IMO and I agree, these standard rifles from said manufacturers are limited production rifles, with none of these manufacturers flooding the market like mass produced rifles.

When you take an Omega, rework the action and put a barrel other than standard on it, its custom. When you take used or new parts, assemble them as a "one of a kind" rifle, its custom. If you take a standard .50cal rifle and change the barrel to a .45cal, its custom.

However, IMO when you take a Rem700ml and just upgrade to the nose/bolt kit, it does not make it a custom rifle. Nor does changing the trigger spring or hinge pin in an Encore platform rifle, nor does the simple exchange of a trigger system.

Not saying I'm right or wrong.

Grouse45

I would like to see a ML shoot with a stock ML. No special triggers or anything. And limit optics to a 3x9x40 scope. Safe clean and simple!!

Grouse45

This is right off the Ultimate website. Like I said, it's in the custom group of ML'S. Just like the owner clearly states below.

Orders and info, call 517-349-2976

Please place your order well in advance of when you need it. We do not stock pre-made muzzleloaders. Each is custom made to order and requires Ken's individual time & attention. Thank you!

Gm54-120

A match setup where everyone used the same rifles would be cool. In this case all Rem Ultimates or even UF Ultimates or Coopers.

No projectile restrictions but all powder load data must be supported in the manual. In other words if BH209 isn't listed or limited to 120gr you can not use it or use more.

It would be interesting to see how many chose to use conicals over sabots and how well they compared.

Gm54-120

I believe the term limited production is the closest we will both get to agreeing and i could accept that as a reasonable description.

BarnesAddict

Thank you.

Look very closely again at each word written above and don't read anything into it. What's happening is you're seeing only the word custom. It jumps up and grabs your attention, so you identify it only as custom.
What that statement says is that he builds them one at a time.
He uses the same identical parts for every single BP Xpress build, reaching into a container of identical parts for each rifle, and each rifle is identical rather you order it or I order it. IMO and as you see above, Gm54-120 also accepts it as a "Limited Production Rifle". Its a standard rifle that no matter who orders one, they are identical rifles, made from the identical parts. What you're identifying with, is MARKETING.

Marketing is a big deal and the way things are worded doing so catches people's attention, quickly. Good marketing earns a lot of money for businesses. We see it every day with many different things on TV. "Ask your doctor about .....", "Flex steel" "Bigger and better" and the list goes on an on. Marketing is the second largest cost, non-value added I might add, in the auto industry. Auto manufacturers spend hundreds of millions each year just on marketing alone.

chaded

I can't believe there is actually a debate on whether or not the bp express is a custom muzzleloader or not. Marketing or not, it is being touted as the worlds best custom muzzleloader. Why would you call it a custom muzzleloader repeatedly (look at the website, its all over) if it is not a custom muzzleloader? Is it because he wants to look like a liar? I think not. It's probably because He believes it's a custom muzzleloader, go figure.

We can use word play on the words "custom" and "production" but i think it is common sense that the bp express is not a production muzzleloader in the usual sense of the word. It is a production muzzleloader in the sense that is was produced...thats as far as it goes. Just because they are all built the same doesnt mean squat. The gun is made of a hodge podge of parts and is made per order. Using another gun factory's action, an aftermarket barrel, and your own breechplug system, and then throwing it all together on an order by order basis certainly is a custom.

BarnesAddict

So then a CVA frame that has a Bergara barrel installed is also a custom? A CVA that comes with a standard breech plug and a BH209 breech plug is installed is a custom? An Encore platform rifle that uses the same frame but an XT breech plug is a custom? An Encore or CVA that will easily swap barrels to a CF (two guns in one) is a custom? An identical rifle, regardless who purchases it, even if its built by a single person the identical way and identical parts each time, is always a custom built rifle because its not produced on an assembly line? If any rifle is built by multiple people, then its the only way it can be considered a production rifle?

I can assure you, my last Pro Hunter that as I was told I'd regret selling, and do, would outshoot for accuracy any Ultimate made, including my own. However, because I changed the hinge pin and trigger spring, by most people's definition it would have been considered a custom. That would also mean that any Rem700ml that had the 209 conversion added, would also then be a custom. It also means that any White rifle is a custom built rifle.

Only three years ago the Ultimate rifle was barely, if ever, mentioned in forums or on sites. If an owner of the rifle never posted, it wouldn't even be considered or talked about. 99% of the owners of these rifles aren't accurate shooters with them and never will be. They bought them because of the marketing.

Grouse mentions its old tech and outdated, as have others. It is a rifle designed to shoot the dreaded pellet, an outdated propellant with high SD's, but convenient for new shooters. It only comes in .50cal, where everyone wants a fast twist .45cal today. It is not, and you will be told expressly by UF, it IS NOT BH209 compatible and you will be told not to shoot BH209 from the rifle and BH209 is not listed as an approved propellant in the rifle's manual.

I'm wondering, how many people would get involved in any kind of match or even a friendly back yard competition, where a case of beer was the prize, and want to use pellets and a 300gr SST, when everyone else was shooting weighed charges of BH209 and Parker BE or MH bullets?

Gm54-120

If you look back at the old Manufactures Match at Friendship you will see why this concerns me. Both White and Knight used rifles that were very limited production to set some of the best scores.

Knight had the DE Target model which is now known as the Knight 500 and they cleaned house with it for several years.

In the final year or two White used the Varminters. A sub 40cal rifle that wouldn't even be legal in many states for deer hunting. White broke all previous records with that rifle.

After White set a new score standard nobody wanted to return to that match and it ended shortly afterwards. In the interest of encouraging the "average" Joe i think its only prudent to question what is allowed and what isn't in a "production" or 'limited production" event.

Be careful what you wish for. You might get a good turnout at first but when people realize they have to shoot against a $2000 rifle or beyond and sponsored shooters, many wont be so keen on participating again.

chaded

I actually knew that your response would be to deflect away from the bp express and on to something else. Why does Ken advertise that he is selling custom muzzleloaders? Its not marketing or else CVA (like you mentioned) would advertise they are selling custom muzzleloaders because it sounds better. CVA doesnt because they dont sell custom muzzleloaders. Ken does, well.... because he sells custom muzzleloaders, as hard as that is to believe. CVA and TC also doesnt build rifles on a per order basis either.

The word production in the usual sense of the word in how we use it is, yes, mass produced guns that you can pick at your typical sporting good store, internet vendor, etc. But, your definition of production actually opens the door to a lot of guns yet i bet if they showed up you guys would be throwing fits about them being there (Friendship anyone?). I dont see why Hankins and Luke from ASG cant get in this. They use remington and savage actions, their own breechplug system, and aftermarket barrels amd sometimes they actually have guns already built ready to go (at least Luke). Yet again, one of them guns show up and there will be an uproar.