Sighting-in question
 

Hey, I'm fairly new to this and last year when I sighted in my Muzzleloader I sighted it in for a dirty barrel. Clean barrel was high and to the left, don't remember exactly how far off it was. When I went hunting I didn't have the guts to leave a dirty barrel even though I was shooting BH.

How do you guys sight your guns in??

do you split the difference in spread or

do you sight in for a clean barrel and hold for a 2nd shot on a dirty barrel or

do you sight in for a dirty barrel and adjust for the first shot.

The scope I'm using has adjustable turrets so I've thought about sighting in for a clean barrel and adjusting for a dirty barrel.

Is there a bullet/powder combo that will shoot the same from a clean barrel as a dirty barrel?? I'm planning on getting started early this year with my muzzleloader shooting to get more range time in. Thanks

All my muzzys are sighted in on a clean, cool barrel. When I'm sighting in a rifle I usually have a couple guns with me. (usually do anyway as long as I'm going to be cleaning one I may as well get a couple dirty). This way I can load my rifle and keep it loaded for a week or two and not worry about corrosion setting in.
The one that needs sighting in gets fired then cleaned and dried and allowed to sit while I shoot something else. If you don't have that option, just wait a couple mins. and shoot it again after your sight adjustment. Doing it this way doesn't leave much room for error though so be very conscious of your shots. Make sure everything is the same including how you hold the rifle, cheek weld, etc. Also make sure your rifle likes that particular load and can shoot it well before you go making 1"-2" scope adjustments.

when you clean your rifle between shots do you just swab the bore with a windex/wet patch or do you scrub it with a couple patches?

what about if you have to shoot again when you're hunting. I usually have more than one tag, or If I miss.

When I sight in I do on a dirty barrel. Usually my first shot is not that far off, and all my shots are close anyway. So an inch or two will not make a difference.

I found that with BH209 my rifles shot better on a dirty barrel. In fact the gun seemed not to settle down unless there were two or three shots through it. Otherwise the first three were spread out.

At times, your hunting and maximum shooting distance can be the determining factor. Multiple tags and a second animal should be considered.
For instance, if your maximum hunting shot distance is 90 to 100yds and your first shot(clean barrel) isn't that far off (1-2"), then starting with a clean barrel that's zeroed when fouled probably isn't a major issue. However if your hunting over agricultural fields where the first and/or second shot/s may be 150, 175 or 200yds, then it makes a huge difference.
In the Encore platform rifles I've owned, all SS and shooting BH, all required fouling for the type of hunting conditions presented to me. My last Pro Hunter shot approximately 4" high, 2" right with a clean barrel and I understood that. However my first shot when hunting could be at 200, so it required me to foul the barrel.
If you pay attention to moisture, don't take it from the cold to warmth and don't fall in a creek, I see no reason a SS barrel loaded with BH can't be fouled and loaded for a week. I've left them loaded for up to two weeks with no corrosion issues.
If in doubt, shoot it out and reload it.

i sight in on a dirty barrel........first shot to foul and i run a seasoning patch in between each shot so the buildup isnt excessive

I primer foul only with my Inline. Pop 2 caps and she is dead on at 150 yards. My sidelock is dead nuts on a cold clean barrel for 3 shots then it starts to climb. My OCD won't let me leave a firearm of any sort dirty. If it goes out of the house, it is cleaned when brought back in. Even if I didn't shoot it. Well, my OCD and fear that my old man will climb up from his grave and kick my butt! It's how I was raised.

My muzzleloaders are sighted in with a squeaky clean bore. Any gun that shoots bullets to different points of impact with a clean and dirty bore soon go away.

To get my guns sighted in, I start with a perfectly clean gun, pop 3 primers and swab the barrel. I then load the gun and fire the shot. The gun is then fully cleaned and start over for the next shot after it has cooled. This is the only way I have found that consistently gives me accurate feed back changes in my routine (scope adjustment, powder adjustment, change bullet, change sabot, etc...). This is the way I am going to load my guns for the actual hunt, so I want to be sure where that first shot out of a 3 primer popped barrel will hit consistently and accurately.


After I have completed the above routine, I will load on a dirty barrel to see how the Point Of Impact (POI) changes from the first shot. 90% of my shots are under 100 yards (most under 50) and the POI shift is minimal.


I like many here simply cannot leave a dirty gun, so popping 3 primers then dry swabbing cleans out the oils and puts my mind more at ease about not damaging my gun from leaving a dirty barrel.

Wow - how many guns have you gotten rid of over your life time ??

Isn't this why competition target shooters always fire a few "fouling shots" before they shoot for group size ??

Yep! I agree

zmason1002

This is a the way I sight in...


I have for years now especially with a ML used a system called Point Blank Range (PBR). For a muzzleloader I use a 6" PBR, meaning through a given range the bullet will never be more than 3" high or 3" low while sighting dead on or Point of Aim (POA).

Point-blank range is the distance between a weapon and a target of a given size its projectile is expected to strike without adjusting the weapon's elevation. Point-blank range will vary by a weapon's external ballistics characteristics and target chosen. A weapon with a flatter trajectory will permit a longer maximum point-blank range for a given target size, while a larger target will allow a longer point-blank range for a given weapon.

Here is a calculator I just found on the net.. and I am sure there are others

http://www.shooterscalculator.com/point-blank-range.php

In my case that means most of rifle will be about 3" high @ 100 and 3" low @ 175 to 90 depending on weight of bullet and powder charge or velocity. This little thing allows me to shoot 0 to 200 without much thought or scope adjusting.

This is a typical ballistic sheet on one of my loads with the PBR built in..



The chart shows my actual zero range is 160 yards and I can shoot to 196 yards and be 3" LOW. You can also the expected Point of Impact -POI at other ranges on the sheet

Hope this makes some sense...

How's that work if you're only 3" high at 100, but also 4" left?

MPBR only works for elevation Barnes...You know that!!! Windage is still up to the shooters practice and ability to read the wind.

Yes I know that. Others may not.
But a clean rifle can throw the first bullet in any direction, including left/right, with zero wind. If vertical was the only issue with a clean vs fouled barrel, life would be easy for many of us.

I am assuming that you are smart enough to sight in 0 for windage. If you are talking about correction for wind velocity to the target that is something time and practice will help you compute. And when you get good at it you can dial it in for that shot.


And I must admit I am not the long range shooter you are - I work with a max range of 200-250 yards. In that distance it is not real difficult to make an informed decision.

Personally I do not have that much difference in clean bore fouled bore in the rifles I shoot... but, then to make things even more confusing I never shoot a clean barrel while hunting. I shoot what I refer to as a "semi clean" barrel. That is only one thing that I do contrary to normal opinion.

I don't either. That is why I sight in with a clean bore. Should a second shot (finishing shot) be necessary I am likely going to be close enough that it won't make any difference.
But unless the animal drops right there and a tracking job is necessary the animal has normally expired before I find it.

I understand. Some shooters just don't have such good luck with a clean vs fouled/semi-fouled barrel. Of all the different rifles I've owned, if my first shot was say between 25 and 100yds, I wouldn't have worried about 1st vs 2nd shots. I'm sure you've seen my Pro Hunter target, shot specifically to show clean vs fouled. That would have been fine for me for 100yd or less shots, because I knew exactly what it did. However for a 200+ shot, I had to foul the barrel. Yes, I'll admit, I have high expectations...

Note: Many times I've harvested multiple animals at a single setting and at range. It was never a "finishing shot" I was worried about.

I'm guessing what you call "semi clean" is the same as me, you fire off a couple of primers on a clean barrel. I've tried my TC on a spotless cold barrel. If you remember a while back I did a cold clean barrel grouping test. Had a little over an inch 5 round group at 150 yards cleaning the barrel thoroughly and cooling it then popping 2 primers, load and shoot. I also tried it on JUST the clean barrel. Groups opened up considerably and were inconsistent in elevation but I didn't experience windage issues. Only elevation.

The ol' Pro Hunter... knowing, I could have gotten away hunting to 100yds, but never further.




Shooting off the shoulder a couple years ago at 200yds with the Ultimate, notice my windage was perfect, yet my vertical first shot, clean bore was WAY high.


With the opportunity to shoot multiple animals in the state for years, I need to know where its going to impact. So I foul for anything beyond 100yds.

Looks like I'm going to have to try different ways.

Is a barrel considered fouled if you shoot a load or two and then swab afterwards? I've read some people suggest to shoot a fouling load and then swab but to me I would think that would be a clean or semi clean bore. There is a lot more that goes into this than a CF rifle I'm finding out lol. A lot of trial and error so it looks like I'm going to have to get after it and start shooting.

My next question for the ones that don't have any poi change between clean and dirty barrel. If the gun changes it's poi between clean and dirty is it because of the powder, bullet, sabot, or is it just the gun. Seems like it could get really expensive shooting the endless amount of bullet, sabot, powder combos trying to get it dialed in.

I'll try to get out this weekend and shoot if the wind corporates. I try to shoot with little to no wind as I can so I can eliminate one variable. Thanks guys.

I'll also try to remember to take a picture of the targets between a clean bore and a fouled bore.

This a target shot recently @ 100 yards. The two shots low right were the first two shots out of the barrel. Then a scope movement and another group shot.


#4 I really believe is my own dang fault - I am sure - I really wanted to stay tight.





Shot #1 was on a semi-clean bore... 3 primers shot and barrel swabbed with a moist - not wet - Windex patch. After that the rifle was shot with the time it patch ( not because of 'crud ring' but because that is the condition the bore would be in while hunting. Shots were shot with out cooling time other than patch/load/shoot.

In my world that would be a semi-clean bore - but definitely even a partially fouled


You are exactly correct.... but once you develop a routine it is second nature and ADDITIVE!


It can actually be all - including the way the receiver and barrel are laying the stock. Especially with a wood stock.



It really is not that bad especially if the barreled action is seated properly and the heating barrel doesn't change your POI by pushing on the stock. With the rifles I shoot I have never found a significant differences in POI with different powder or projectiles. They all seem to stay in their particular groups. Each powder and projectile can possibly set up different barrel harmonics that will create a POI for that load. And again I would suggest a lot of it is in how the barreled action sets in you stock.


Again these are just my personal beliefs and observations.


Have fun shooting - I really wish I could get out here but the weather is not cooperating!

There are no "perfect way" for each shooter or each rifle. What you've been given is information others have experimented with or learned. Hunting situations change from area to area, where those in the western states, might do things completely different than the eastern or mid-west shooters. Some guys in the deep south shoot and clean their rifle every day after a hunt and reload in the morning again. The ranges hunted can be very different between areas, such as hunting heavily wooded areas, to agricultural fields or mountains. I think at times, its what makes muzzleloading so much fun.
Never stop asking questions. You may get 20 different answers, but only the process of trial and error will give you what you want/need.

Great Point!

It is my experience that for the most part it is what you put in your barrel and how you prepare it for hunting. all 3 of my hunting inlines will put that first shot in or close enough to the group that its is fine for hunting to 150 yards.

such is life :wave: