Duplexing For BH209
12-20-2016, 10:23 AM
#1
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Illinois
Posts: 3,695
Duplexing For BH209
Okay boys and girls. It's time to put our thinking caps on for a minute. I just read about a little trick that I may just give a wack at but I'd like to get some opinions or experiences first. I've read a couple posts on another site that some are loading 3-4 grains FFFG down the barrel before a load of BH in their inlines with #11 caps (one was a White Super 91) and getting reliable ignition!! Bronko had a NIB White Super 91 that I passed on for 2 reasons. 1: plunger/bolt type receivers and my sausage fingers just don't get along well without a primer tool. 2: #11 percussion type rifles won't reliably fire BH209 and if I'm using an inline, I want to use the best performing powder on the market. Now I'm kinda kicking myself in the butt for passing on a great deal on a rifle that could have very well surpassed the full bore bullet performance of my TC Pro Hunter barrel (no easy task there) that would also be "western compliant"!! Any of you guys with Whites ever tried this little trick??
12-20-2016, 11:06 AM
#3
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Saxonburg Pa
Posts: 3,925
Ive never liked the idea of duplexing/mixing powders. Different pressure spikes can occur and accuracy will change. I agree BH209 powder is the best powder using 209 primers. But using number 11"S in a White i would shoot 777 myself.
12-20-2016, 11:48 AM
#4
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Illinois
Posts: 3,695
(give ya a sec to wrap yer head around that one ) But yes, variation in power spikes could be a small issue but easily resolved with careful pre measurement of the FFFG so as not to get any deviance between shots. I have some duplex loads (smokeless/BP combo) for my BP cartridge rifles that are absolutely SUPERB but one has to be exacting doing that. The same exacting nature would probably be needed for this as well.
(Disclaimer: Duplex smokeless/black powder loads are extremely dangerous and are NOT recommended for ANYONE not highly educated and experienced in loading and BP cartridge rifles. To put it simply, it can easily cost you your life.)
12-20-2016, 11:59 AM
#5
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Saxonburg Pa
Posts: 3,925
Super slow? A quick dump just like powdering your flash pan on a flinter as an extra step would only add a couple seconds really. And I didn't even think about trying this with a sidelock given the flash hole position, I would imagine getting the FFFG next to it to ignite first would be difficult at best.
How could it change if you haven't tried it in the first place?? (give ya a sec to wrap yer head around that one )
But yes, variation in power spikes could be a small issue but easily resolved with careful pre measurement of the FFFG so as not to get any deviance between shots. I have some duplex loads (smokeless/BP combo) for my BP cartridge rifles that are absolutely SUPERB but one has to be exacting doing that. The same exacting nature would probably be needed for this as well.
(Disclaimer: Duplex smokeless/black powder loads are extremely dangerous and are NOT recommended for ANYONE not highly educated and experienced in loading and BP cartridge rifles. To put it simply, it can easily cost you your life.)
How could it change if you haven't tried it in the first place??
(give ya a sec to wrap yer head around that one ) But yes, variation in power spikes could be a small issue but easily resolved with careful pre measurement of the FFFG so as not to get any deviance between shots. I have some duplex loads (smokeless/BP combo) for my BP cartridge rifles that are absolutely SUPERB but one has to be exacting doing that. The same exacting nature would probably be needed for this as well.
(Disclaimer: Duplex smokeless/black powder loads are extremely dangerous and are NOT recommended for ANYONE not highly educated and experienced in loading and BP cartridge rifles. To put it simply, it can easily cost you your life.)
12-20-2016, 05:30 PM
#6
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 6,585
One of my hunting buddies uses a primer of 10 grains of flowered blasting powder[5F]
as a primer charge. He puts saran wrap in his quick loader over the top of the powder and puts the black 5F on that then dumps that in first pulls off the saran wrap and puts in the main charge. I warned him that he will get the remains of a cap in his face some day but he has been doing it for 5 years and is comfortable with it.
as a primer charge. He puts saran wrap in his quick loader over the top of the powder and puts the black 5F on that then dumps that in first pulls off the saran wrap and puts in the main charge. I warned him that he will get the remains of a cap in his face some day but he has been doing it for 5 years and is comfortable with it.
12-20-2016, 06:56 PM
#7
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Eastern PA
Posts: 12,745
Don't know if I would do it but I don't see any harm in doing it either. If I don't have a reliable ignition (AKA 209) I wont use BH209.
But on a side note I've been having some good success with Black MZ powder. It's been shooting great on the range and firing 3 shots on game has resulted in two deer and one hog. (one deer and the hog were DRT and the other deer didn't travel very far). Loading is easy and cleaning between shots like 209 is not necessary. But unlike BH209 it ignites reliably with #11 caps.
But on a side note I've been having some good success with Black MZ powder. It's been shooting great on the range and firing 3 shots on game has resulted in two deer and one hog. (one deer and the hog were DRT and the other deer didn't travel very far). Loading is easy and cleaning between shots like 209 is not necessary. But unlike BH209 it ignites reliably with #11 caps.
12-21-2016, 04:59 AM
#9
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,605
Duplexing has been going on longer than any of us have been alive. There is even data listed in a Lyman manual for BPCR using no more than 10% smokeless in older cartridges like 45/70, 45/90 ect.
The early duplexes used 4F under 1.5F or 2F and later powders like 4759 and 5744 started being used as the "igniter" charge.
Google "BPCR duplexing". You will get many hours of reading on the topic.
BTW Hodgdon has been dong the same thing since Pyro pellets came out. What do you think the black end of a Pyro pellet is made out of? Right in the Pyrodex MSDS it lists Pyro pellets as having a lower ignition requirement. https://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/MSDS%20F...Sheet-2013.pdf
Granular 740F
Pellets 500F
The early duplexes used 4F under 1.5F or 2F and later powders like 4759 and 5744 started being used as the "igniter" charge.
Google "BPCR duplexing". You will get many hours of reading on the topic.
BTW Hodgdon has been dong the same thing since Pyro pellets came out. What do you think the black end of a Pyro pellet is made out of? Right in the Pyrodex MSDS it lists Pyro pellets as having a lower ignition requirement. https://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/MSDS%20F...Sheet-2013.pdf
Granular 740F
Pellets 500F
Last edited by Gm54-120; 12-21-2016 at 05:05 AM.
12-21-2016, 05:14 AM
#10
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,605
On a side note ive duplexed BH209 with smokeless as a test in my smokeless Pacnor 45. Adding a small amount of slower burning double based powder i gained over 100fps vs a straight 120grV BH209 load.
That barrel can easily handle a straight 70gr load of that powder so it was safe in my barrel. Im not suggesting it is safe in your typical muzzleloader.
That barrel can easily handle a straight 70gr load of that powder so it was safe in my barrel. Im not suggesting it is safe in your typical muzzleloader.