Its here 1-20
 

Went to the range today with the mountaineer 45cal 1-20 I was just shooting just to see what's up with the gun and adjusting the scope. used BH209 W209 primers and Hornady .40 200gr XTP and harvester blue smooth side sabot for all shots. all shots were at 100yds. shots 1-4 was 105gr to adjust scope then 110gr was 5-8 and then bottom right was 120gr 1-3. there was no cool down time between shoots for heating up the dyno coating in the bore. I would say it was a fun time doing a little shooting and the first time out with this gun. and it was 85 deg out the barrel got good and hot." />
plus I ran off and left my front rest and had to try to us what I had to make one and it was not good one.

I would suggest heating that barrel up a few times before shooting in for hunting. I would suggest doing it sabot less if you can. Can't wait to see your results in the future.

If I had one I would replace the stock with a Kevlar stock. Cut 2 inches off the barrel and have it crowned. I would then have the breech plug drilled out 5/32 and tapped for a vent liner. Wow, that seems like a lot of work, but so easy to do at the factory😉

I would have loved to had the Kevlar stock but only on the ulite and they will not sale one. next outing will be using 270gr E max with wad and will see what that looks like on a good hot bore.

I dont think you would like it too light when shooting heavy sabotless loads. My Super DISC will rock you pretty good with 120gr of BH209 and a 300gr bullet.

It will be interesting to see how well the Mountaineer handles heavy sabotless loads. Im mainly curious about how well the primers extract after shooting them.

Handles 120 gr by volume with 270 emax fine but from 110 gr on mine requires a quick dry fire in order to extract the primer
I will probably stay around 120 . If i shoot hotter loads i think i will do it from my custom Omega

I have two breech plug one setup for W209 and one CCI209M will see if there's any change in primers sticking in the breech plug. in my last outing with W209 I had some stick with 105gr & 110gr but not 120gr also. in may 1-30 twist mountaineer I had none stick with it setup for CCI209M from 100gr to 120gr. just working the bugs out.

I would modify that plug for sure.

Arent the new Knight bare primer plugs already 5/32" Im sure that is the size my Lehigh plug takes to clean.

It sounds like you need to but some washer in the breech plug for your head spacing mine just sticks in the breech plug not the bolt I may have to change the thickness of my washer may be to much making the primer blog on the end of the primer when closed. 5/32 is what I us to clean mine.

On Knights website they now have a new Extreme bare primer system. They made the new one similar to the Mountaineer bare primer system. Ive been very pleased with the old style Lehigh plugs and bolt adapter. The only one that will stick regularly is in the Super DISC with Fed209As. It happens pretty much every shot.

Curious, why do you think it sticks?
I've always wondered what is really the root cause of primers sticking like that...and why some do and some don't. Is power charge a major contributing factor? Like heavy loads tend to stick and lighter don't, or vice versa? I have not experienced sticking primers yet in my rifles, but I have not shot alot of varying loads/components either.


I saw the new kits they have available. I wonder if when you buy a new gun and request "bare" it comes with the bare bolt and plug, or just the adapter and plug. ?

Personally, I don't think I'd spend $100 to convert an existing rifle...the adapter and plug work just fine and cost much less.

I think it happens in my Super DISC because the tolerance is not as tight as my other Knights. Ive shot some beefy loads in my 54-120 and no primer has ever stuck in it. Im talking 120gr of BH209 and a 385gr Rem CLHP in a tight 54x50 sabot.

My Super DISC will stick with a Fed209A with almost any load. The anvil backs out of the primer cup. A quick re-firing the spent primer allows it to fall out like normal. On the same range session, same load and next shot i can use a Win209. It will fall right out of the adapter.

In may old super disc I have had no primer stick at all the breech plug is setup for CCI209M primers and have shot loads up to 135gr BH and a 200gr bullet but when shooting a 260gr bullet and 125gr BH the primer cap leaked and that's with a new vent liner and the primer came out fine never had a stick. just to much pressure. will have to see what the new 1-20 dose with the CCI209M breech plug setup for that primer.

I hate all the new Knight breech plugs. I would drill and tap and put removable vent liner in. All the Lehigh plugs are 17-4 stainless steel I believe. Knight said that was to expensive and went with a cheaper steel. Though it's still better then T/C and CVA I like what we originally designed the best. So to make the current Knight plugs better you gotta put a removable vent liner in. If not, you'll wear the plugs out fast due to design.

It's hard to imagine that it would be cost prohibitive to use a better grade of stainless on something as small as a breech plug. Not a good sign when a company places small material savings over quality of product. JMHO

Me, i think the type of stainless used in the Knight plugs is the least of the problem with them. To me, the worst issue, is the brazed in vent liner. Selling the plugs with the brazed vent liner only creates problems. Since they cannot sell plugs with loose vent liners, they should sell plugs without vent liners.

It would be trivially easy to install a vent liner into a plug without a brazed vent liner. Removing the brazed vent liner, and installing a removable vent liner requires a good machine, carbide drills, and carbide end mills. Carbide drills, and end mills cost a lot of money compared to high speed or cobalt end mills, and drills. Installing a vent liner into any breech plug without a brazed vent liner can be done using standard high speed drills.

Another thing that seems to be a problem with the brazed vent liner, is the brazing process makes for a vent liner that seems to wear faster than the vent liners that haven't been brazed. Breech plugs without vent liners seem to wear better than the plugs with brazed vent liners.

Dumping the brazed vent liners will probably cost, however, it would better serve the customer. The customer can readily drill and tap the breech plugs without the brazed vent liner, so to utilize a removable vent liner. That being said, if one has the proper tooling, removing the brazed vent liner is straight forward.

That thought has crossed my mind several times also. There really is no point in a brazed in vent that wears faster than no vent at all.

Unless,,,,you simply enjoy selling breach plugs faster to your customers.

Ron,
The simple solution is a removable ventliner so none of all that you wrote above is necessary. Like HB always said, safe clean and simple.

If Knight could Knight would would Knight not?

No argument intended, but tell me why not? If you forget to take your ramrod out of the barrel someone will get hurt. If you double load a ML someone will more in likely will get hurt. If you don't know we're your shooting someone will get hurt. There are lots of scenarios that someone could get hurt. Telling me you can't put a removable vent liner cause someone might forget to put it in is not a good enough excuse for anyone who knows anything about Muzzleloader's and loading in general.

Sad thing is Grouse, the idiots that abound in this world rule the manufacturers with liability suits. You have to look at things from the manufacturers point of view on this one. If they feel that there could POSSIBLY be a moron out there that would neglect to replace a vent liner before firing then they have to take that into account. To you and those of us who are accustomed to MLers and the possible dangers of NOT replacing such a small thing this may seem like a non issue. But to the lawyers of the manufacturers they look at it as a small feature that would be easily overlooked by a rookie causing damages. In today's world of lawsuits being looked at as a lotto game they have to err on the side of unreasonable to us.

I thought it was more along the lines of the savage patent deal than an injury issue.

Yes, me too; don't really know for sure.

As far as injury goes... a while ago i accidentally shot a rifle without a ventliner. That was a surprise. Doing so didn't injure me. The powder leaked into the action some. Shooting without a vent liner was dirtier. The primer does experience more pressure, and gets stuck. Since i was there, i shot the rifle four more times without, and recorded velocity, then five times with.

You're correct - Savage does hold the patent for the removable vent liner in a breech plug. So in this case while Knight, Lehigh, and almost everyone else has a concern about safety the reason for the brazing was concern of a law suit about crossing the lines of a patent.

The only reason I can think of that they went forward with the brazed vent liner is that the vent liner should/could outlast a plug with out a vent liner. The heat created by BH has shown that this is not the case. On the other hand I am shooting T7 and so far have been getting longer life from the vent liner than I might have gotten from a solid breech plug.

The original Lehigh breech plug was built and hardened from 17-4PH metal.

It is an extremely strong metal. But because of the necessity to make the vent liner non-removalable the metals of both the breech plug and the vent liner were changed so that the brazing process could/would work. The breech plug was changed to 416 Stainless. With this new combinations of metals the brazing process could be completed with a normal vacuum suction method.

None of this process would have been necessary if Savage was not the owner of the patent or if Knight could have received assurance from Savage that patent violations would not be filed.

Today if you were to go the Lehigh Bullets web site (not Lehigh Defense) the Savage Vent liners now being offered have returned to the type that Lehigh originally produced for the Savage and with the higher level of hardening applied.

At this point, and I have not asked, if Lehigh will ever be able to offer the original Lehigh bare breech plug.

All good excuses but the main reason was cost. The 17-4 was pretty expensive in comparison but well worth it in my opinion.