why does accuracy go away?
 

Long story, but I'll try to keep it short. I've bought 2 rifles in the past few years that shot decent groups when brand new. A Traditions, and a CVA. I was shooting sabots over BP in both, with bullet weights from 250 to 300gr, and charges from 80 to 100gr of ffg Goex.

I don't shoot them a lot, but immediately after every shooting session I clean them with water (water soaked cotton patches), run a wire brush several strokes through the bore, clean again with water, dry & lube (usually RemOil).

Both guns were opening up groups by the time I had 30 shots through them, and the Traditions will no longer (after 50 shots at the most) even keep 3 shots on paper at 100 yards.

I have owned many inlines (and one sidelock with a fast twist GM barrel) over the years and never had a problem with my loads or cleaning methods until I got these 2 rifles.

Suggestions??????

well if you are cleaning with just water, its most likely plastic,copper, lead build up thats hurting your accuracy due to lack of a cleaning solvent. Waters great to kill the corrosive salts in black powder and sub powders, but it does nothing to remove the stuff I mentioned above.

Have you been cleaning the breech plugs properly with a drill bit? After about 20-30 shots on my cva plug, it opens them up a good deal.

If your cleaning with hot water like most do with Goex its really the best way to get rid of plastic fouling. Another benefit with Goex is you don't need to worry about your breech plug effecting accuracy like you do with BH209.

I would only use the remoil on the outside of your ML. Not good to use in the bore in my opinion. Assuming rings, bases, scope, sights etc are all good. I would clean that bore really good and run some patches of JB's bore paste thru it. Try your load again, if no luck try changing sabots.

rem oil is more than fine in the bore. Anything you put in the bore must be removed prior to loading. I used to use plenty of barricade in my muzzleloaders till i made my own stuff. Actually i still use plenty of barricade in the smokeless rifles and shotguns.

Remoil contains Teflon and is not reccomended by match barrel makers and custom rifle makers as well. The Teflon along with the heat inside the bore will eat away at the rifling and even before hand effect accuracy. I know this myself to be true in my own testing, but you can argue with the barrel makers and manufactures. As far as protecting the outside of your firearm it's fine.

Didn't mention it, but I do clean the breech plug each time I clean the rifles (I have a 3mm drill bit I epoxied in a wood handle). I'm starting to think it's plastic fouling, but don't understand why I've never had a problem with other inlines (T/C Omega, Remington 700ML, Knight disc to name a few).

I usually clean with cold water (sometimes window cleaner). It seems cold water gets the BP fouling out faster.

Scope & mounts are solid (I switched to a Leupold scope I had and know is good last year on the CVA).

BH 209 is not available locally, so no chance to try it yet. :mad:

2 cleaners for you wabi. Otis 012 CU and Otis 012 PL. The CU is for copper fouling and the other is designed to remove plastic fouling. For years and years I have cleaned my MLers with hot soap and water and it did the job reasonably well. Decided to give that PL a swing since I use that on my shotguns. That stuff pulled a ton of plastic fouling out of my lands and groves. Hit it with the CU and 4 patches later the blue was FINALLY dissipating. I shoot a ton more than you since I'm always testing this or that out so I foul my barrels up pretty well. Try using that stuff on your other MLers and you might see a difference in them as well.

Just seems odd to me that plastic fouling could affect accuracy that much with relatively few shots (30-50). ??

Me too!
If the 30-50 number is correct and he's not using magnum powder loads, wabi needs to check his powder for contamination too. It would also be nice to know the amount of different bullets he's shot in those relatively new MLs. Plus has wabi tried different plastic sabots with those bullets?

One last thing wabi! Why would you get rid of an Omega to get a Traditions?..... or a Knight to buy a CVA? If it's taking you a few years to shoot 30-50 shots, that Omega and Disc ML wasn't anywhere near wore-out. Were you having accuracy issues with those too?....... is that why you sold them?

I bought the Traditions simply because the break open design is a bit easier to clean. The CVA was on sale and I had to bring it home with me. :eek2:
When it comes to sabots/bullets I usually shoot whatever I can find at a good price to get sighted in, then use Barnes Expanders for hunting (after I confirm POI at the bench).

My powder is a few years old, but in my T/C Hawken with a Green Mountain LRH barrel I still get good groups (for open sights & my old eyes) at 100 yards. And I have an old CVA Staghorn that shoots accurately with it. I'm going to hunt with the Hawken this year, but wanted a scoped inline for my son to use. I have a good friend that will let him use one of his Knights (MK85 or Vision), so I may go that route, or I might just stick the Leupold on the CVA Staghorn and let him use it. Our hunting area changed this year when a nature preserve bought up the neighboring farm (where we had permission to hunt), so shots will be close with about 120 yards being the maximum. (Small fields & heavy woods.)

Thinking seriously about using the Traditions & CVA for boat anchors and buying another Knight.

That would be your best bet. I would also quit using cold water cleaning Goex.

Curious what scope you have. I bought a new Encore years ago and had a pretty cheap Traditions brand scope. The gun was awesome the first 5 years or so then it got gradually worse. I tried everything and eventually bought a new Leupold scope. That brought it right back where it should be.

send me that boat anchor, i'll show you how to shoot it :D

I think cleaning with water might be causing tiny amounts of rust build up which could affect your accuracy

Matt, if you clean and oil properly, soap and water is a very good option for cleaning BP and T7 and Pyro. Been cleaning MLers for more years than most you fellas have been alive with soap and water. Always use HOT HOT HOT water. The hottest you can tolerate. Makes evaporating and drying the water 100 times easier. I use that Otis stuff only every so often. No need to use it for every cleanup. Since I went to Blackhorn I now use Hoppes on my PH BP barrel but I still use soap and water on my old Hawken. Never had a rust issue with any of my BP firearms. Light coat of oil after cleaning and drying and all good.

Leupold VX1 2-7 x 33

i believe the vx1 had its share of issues with tracking and holding up. The vx2 was a nicer upgrade. Have you considered trying open sights or another scope?

Might try another scope. I have a VX2 1-4X20 but it's on my crossbow right now.

I appreciate the heads up on this product. Sometimes-where plastic is concerned-I've felt like my cleaning regimen has been lacking. I will give some of the PL a try and see how it does.

I am considering the 16oz. bottle. Super, does this product have longer shelf life concerns?

Can't help you
 

I only cleaned a muzzleloader with homemade "moosemilk" and it used more than water.