White barrel
 

Well boy's and girls. I got a reply from White the other day and I have a dilemma. Here is the question I sent off to Doc:

And here be the response
Dilemma= I am still going to have to get either barrel fitted up with the hinging bracket and stuff but I am just not sure I want JUST ONE!!!!! I am starting to think I might just want BOTH!!! Doc White barrels in both .45 AND .50 caliber mated to my TC Pro hunter system sheesh am I being greedy or stupid? I could probably bust out some serious playtime with that .45 fast twister and that .50 semi fast twister is tha bees knees! What say you all?

Go for it , or just pick up a couple whites and forget having to make them into prohunter interchangeable barrels.
Get a super 91 in .451 and .504 or a white tail hunter or U-mag in .504 .

The more i think about it the more i think you should get the barrels mated to your tc platform and get a .451 and .504 White . Do both :)

I would go with the .451. But as you can see I'm partial to the 45 cal.

The 45 will handle everything unless you want to go for big bears.

Ed

I have a problem with bolt style ML systems SS. I just can't get my fat ass fingers to get in there to load the damn things. I just don't like them. Not to mention my PH system fits me like a glove. Out of the MANY rifles I own, that system fits me the absolute best. I can shoot it right or left handed (right a little better but not by much) but it just comes to shoulder amazingly well for me. Plus I can load the damn thing without a freaking tool! (For any readers not familiar with muzzleloaders, by loading I mean putting the cap in)

But all in all, I really have wanted a .45 barrel for a bit now but from what I have seen on several ML boards here lately I really don't want to go with a TC made barrel that I will have to hand lap or JB to death before I could even dream about ranging it well. Like I've said before, I think I got really lucky with all 7 of the barrels I got with this PH platform. They all shoot incredibly well but from what I have heard, since S&W took the company over, quality has went to hell. I got this system about 8 months after it came out.

I would get the 45 for sure. I'm not a 1/24 fan at all with sabots

You know Green Mountain sells 50cal 1-24 cut rifled barrel blanks for about the same price as that White 504. http://www.gmriflebarrel.com/bx5024-...5-round-blank/

They sell a 45cal 1-18 cut rifled too.

IIRC a T/C Encore/ProHunter platform requires several inches of barrel to be .990 OD along the frame.

Ill have to get out my calipers and see but I think that's correct GM.

I just checked, the Encore barrel is .990 around the scope base holes and frame. You may want to check if that White barrel has enough meat in that area.

The GM barrel blanks have plenty left to contour anyway you like or need.

You really should consider the Begara Full Contour 45/70 for a 1-20 45cal. Its about the same price ($219 or less) and already has the hanger. Another $150 for plug work and you have a fast twist 45. Slufoot even recrowns it for muzzleloading. Usually takes less than 2 weeks. These builds will even shoot a 200gr SST over 2500fps with ease if you want to quit "smoking".

Sent off another Email to find out the size in that area. Thanks for the heads up there GM. I didn't think about that. One thing about a Bergara barrel Gm is I would have to use their plug which I heard sucks wind. And why would a get a .45 barrel for a 45/70 from Bergara that I would have to work on when they have 28 inch .45 barrel's for ML's for TC's drop in ready?
The Green Mountain option is certainly a good thought. I have one in my Hawken (lovingly called "the mutt") and it's always been a good shooter with lighter powder loads. But she sure balks hard at higher charges! 90gr's of T7p is about her limit then she starts to pattern like a damn shottie!

Because the 45/70 barrel is a 1-20 and you would use either a Savage breach plug or one of the others plugs rated for smokeless pressures. Such as a Hankins HIS plug but that gets pricey. They all work fine with BH209 and subs. You wont be using a CVA plug at all when converting a 45/70 barrel.

The Bergara 45ml barrel is a 1-28 and ive heard of several that ran quite large including a Accura 45cal i used to own.

Ah ok, cleared that question up quick and in a hurry!

Gm, I just got off the phone with a buddy of mine that works for Shilen. He flat out said I would be screwing the pooch for a LOT of bullets out there if I went to a 1:20 .45. Said they are great with the longer, heavier bullets but for the most part they over spin the hell out of most bullets for hunting. Said my best bet would be to go for a Bergara .45 1:28 28 inch barrel if I wanted a .45. Said most every bullet he feeds his works well in it. So it looks like I might just be doing that. He did say that 1:24 twist .50cal barrel from White would be a great addition. Said I could seriously lighten my powder charges and still use a heavier bullet which is what I really want to do.

Im sorry but i know of a couple hundred people that disagree and they all own 1-20 or 1-22 45cals shooting 195gr-200gr bullet in sabots and 275gr to 300gr bullets sabotless.

That includes me. My 1-22 will shoot a 200gr bullet over 2700fps with ease and do it very accurately. If my 1-22 doesn't "over spin" a sabotted bullet at 2700fps or more, a 1-20 will in no way over spin it at 2000-2400fps.

There are many guys shooting converted 45/70 1-20s on Dougs board. Many if not most use sabots because the platform kicks like mad with a 275gr sabotless at 2600fps :D

This is my 1-22 at 2650-2700fps with a 200gr SST in a sabot

You may want to look at these pics before you decide the Bergara 1-20 wont shoot. :p

http://s951.photobucket.com/user/cvi...?sort=3&page=1

http://s951.photobucket.com/user/cvi...?sort=3&page=1

T/C 20" 45/70 conversion 1-20
http://s951.photobucket.com/user/cvi...1d827.jpg.html

These two were built for Bob Parker by Jeff Hankins.

I have 2 --1:18 barrels
1 --1:22
About a dozen 1:20 and i totally disagree
Shilen employee or not he is simply recommending what he owns and is familiar with which is what most people do . How much hunting has he actually done with a 1:20 . Ive killed probably 30 or so deer with a fast twist and wouldnt switch to a 1:28
My 1:20 's shoot lots of different saboted bullets and can also shoot parkers, sst's barnes t-eze and others sabotless
Sst fits as is without sizing . . So do parkers
Then if i choose add in all the lead conicals like bullshop or no excuses . I bet my 1:20 can shoot a whole more different bullets then his 1:28 . Shucks , talk about verstility i can hunt States that require a conical , i can hunt with a saboted bulket like lehigh , i shoot long range in competition or wide open prairie hunting. I say 1:20 rules in the 45

Okay okay stop twisting me dang arm!!!!! :s2: Just relaying what I was told. I did find a lot of people saying the same thing online as well as from several ML articles talking about why very few makes the .45 in 1:20 twist anymore. Here are a couple cuttings from them just to show you why I was being misled:
Taken from here: http://www.gunnersden.com/index.htm....5-caliber.html

1:20" twist barrels shoot long heavy bullets fine at velocities below 1650 fps with sabots and under 1400 fps with conicals.
1:28" twist barrels shoot many weights of bullets fine either sabots and conicals over the entire velocity range.
1:48" twist barrels shoot patched roundball fine up to about 1800 fps and under 1750 fps with conicals.
1:66" twist barrels shoot shoot patched roundball over the entire velocity range quite accurately.

This one from PRB is the one that got me thinking: https://www.prbullet.com/s45.htm

We have .45 barrels in the shop with twist of 1:20", 1:22", 1:24", 1:28" and 1:30". We have done extensive testing using sabots from 175 grains to 250 grains and conicals from 275 grains to 360 grains. We have tested these bullets with charges of powder from 70 grains to 150 grains. Velocities from 1350 fps to 2350 fps. Our results are predictable and consistent.

1:20" twist barrels shoot long heavy bullets fine at velocities below 1650 fps with sabots and under 1400 fps with conicals.

1:24" twist barrels shoot long heavy bullets fine up to about 1800 fps with sabots and under 1550 fps with conicals.

1:28"-1:30" twist barrels shoot all weights of bullets fine either sabots and conicals over the entire velocity range attainable with charges of powder up to and including 150 grains.

Personally, I would not buy any .45 caliber muzzleloader that did not have a barrel twist of 1:28" to 1:30". Period. Currently the gun makers who fall into that range are Knight, CVA, Winchester, Remington and Kahnke.

That's just a couple but you can see why I made a call.

Ive read that on Cecils site also and it never fails but make me chuckle because his .40/45 260 gr dead center shoots one hole groups at 100 yards in my 1:20 . I bought 2 cases of them this past sale and shot them all up . Someday i should tell him what i am shooting them from 😀

Well, the wife showed me my first bill that my Medical insurance don't cover with my knee stuff so that made the decision for me. Going with GM's suggestion and getting the Bergara 45/70 barrel fitted up with a Plug. May get me a White Barrel next year. Even with me not spending a truckload on out of state hunts this year damn Doc bills are going to smack my butt hard.

Look up Slufoot on Dougs message board or i will see if i can get you his contact info. He does great work and its cheap. You only need to supply the barrel and Savage breach plug which is about $30-35 or $80 if you want to go with a tungsten bushing version.

I just use the regular vent liner version. The tungsten bushing version last way way longer. At least 400 shots and probably way more before it needs a new bushing. Vents last over 100 shots usually. I get 200 or so out of a Lehigh vent liner in my Knights with BH209.

BTW this conversion will handle smokeless loads if you choose. A 200gr SST at 2400fps is a walk in the park with only 56gr of powder and the peak pressure is very low with that load.

Thanks GM, I'll do just that. I doubt I'd go smokeless with that rig. I'd stick to BH (which is dang near smokeless power) More than likely just go with reg vent liners. (Domed Lehigh) and probably use an O-Ring and polish up the nipple for easier cap removal but still keeping a good seal.

Slufoot shims the plug with a bushing or SS washer for a good primer fit.

Busta had one built on a H&R 45/70 which he now calls the Super Smoker. No worries, BH209 performs quite well with a Savage breach plug. Mine is fine with either a Win209 or a Fed209A. I use the mag primers with this plug and BH209 just for a piece of mind and they fit well too.










Google "Busta Super Smoker" for the link. HNI gets crabby about posting links to other forums.

You don't have bullet starting problems with the mag primers? I tried using them a few times and had horrible groups with them. I reasoned out that the mag primers were literally starting the bullet before the powder got up to pressure. I tested the theory by loading a bullet without powder and firing a primer. Moved the bullet damn near an inch! And it was a fairly tight fit as well.

That's good to know.

Ive used both CCI and CCI mag primers in my ULA. Both worked fine because they both fit the same.

Personally, i dont believe a mag primer is any worse than a standard strength primer as far as groups are concerned. Use whichever works and fits best in your breach plug. A longer plug may benefit from a hotter primer. Plugs like the ULA, Omega and Lehigh/Knight plugs simply dont need them.

When i use smokeless in my Savage Pacnor 45, i use Win209s for the faster powders and Fed209As for the slower powders. If the mag primer was causing a problem, it would show up more commonly with a slower powder. Most single based slower powders tend to be harder to ignite.

look at just a sampling of bullets in the thread "food for 1:20" Then think through the advantages of a fast twist before jumping into a 1:28 You might be surprised at the opportunities

I am also assuming I will have to fashion something for my ramrod or does he do that as well? One of my forearms SHOULD fit fine since it's a Bergara for a TC pro hunter anyway. I accurised the frame years ago and have 4 or 5 different hinge pins. Also had that trigger re-worked to bring it to 3 pounds. Heavier hammer spring as well. Seems like a lot of work to get this system shooting extremely well but it really wasn't.

I believe you need to use the ML forend and follow these directions. You can also ask Slufoot when you call him. He has done a ton of these conversions.

http://www.hausofarms.com/Forend-Sol...rels_b_62.html

BTW Haus of Arms also has the T/C 45/70 24" barrel in stock for $290. The Bergara full contour is $220 from them but ive seen it cheaper.

Yeah I'm looking around. Might have to wait till next year around tax time to do it. Wife giving me the old "stink eye" ya know :wink: Funny when it comes time to get her a new toy I don't get stink eye then aint it!