Live and learn
 

I bought a Traditions Vortex 50 cal.pistol.Shot a 50 grain charge of 3f triple seven.The crud ring was so bad,,the next bullet was 2 inches off the powder.I know you are suppose to wipe between shots,but when you hunting you cant do that.I called Traditions customer service and they told me their guns shot just fine with triple seven and told me I could send it back and they would shoot it,clean it between shots and if it loaded,it was 100 %.They told me to try a lube on my sabot,it helps.I guess I need to check out different powders.But don't think I will ever buy another traditons product..I was speaking to one of their so called gunsmiths and he told me I was the only person to ever have a crud ring in their pistol.hmm he musta thought I was a little dumber than I am,,lol.

It is better to live one day as a lion,than a 100 years as a sheep

Only rifle I ever sold was traditions xlt, also had emails with customer service and gunsmith, also told my problems were normal wear and tear, never will buy another traditions rifle.

They are pulling straws out their... they always have an excuse.

Don't lube the sabot. That will not effect the crud ring and its not recommended. All you can do is swab between shots. When you're hunting, take some patches with you. Even spit will remove T-7. Put the patch in your mouth and then swab with that if you're in the woods.

If you don't want to shoot BlackHorn 209 and don't want to swab, then use Jim Shockey Gold 3f powder. There is no swabbing with that.

I have some shockeys gold on hand. I will give that a try.I am going to have to break down n try some Blackhorn 209.It was $31 at the gun shop the other day.Triple Seven and Prodex was still running $19.Over the years I have been lucky enough to put some meat on the table with a quick second shot.

I have the CVA Optima 50 cal pistol, with the 209 breech plug, Shooting 65 gr of powder weigh, we shoot 15 times sighting it in and playing with it, never swabed 1 time, just cleaned out the flash hole with the drill bit. Love that hand cannon.

I wish you hadn't said that Dave,,about the cva pistol..I was thinking about that one..lifes about choices,I will figure something out with the traditions pistol.

inghamtr

I will say this and speaking 'in general' a lot of the 'crud ring' could be related to what might be in your bore... especially when using a hot 209 primer. You did not say what primer you were using so I am assuming a 209.

I am assuming just by your post this is a new pistol. So my first question would be did strip clean the bore? Often the preservatives that company use are a real pain to get out of the bore but they really do need to removed.

Also I have found using synthetic bore oil is far better than using a petroleum based bore oil.

Most often, the 'crud ring' is caused by the heat of T7 burning something in the bore other than the powder. And usually the ring is formed right under the base of the bullet not up the barrel as I think you have indicated.

One other thought, you may find as you shoot and care for the bore in what I will call the proper method the size/amount of the 'crud ring' will decrease.

And as Cayugad has already suggested following his suggestions will solve the problem while shooting.

NORMALLY, while hunting I can shoot 4-5 shots before the 'crud ring' becomes a problem - sometimes even more...

I ran a brush down the bore and swabbed it out with hoppes gun cleaner,,a few dry patches and fired a couple of primers.. Actually I have shot the pistol on two different occasions with the same results. You are more than likely right. sabot loader I need to scrub the heck out of the barrel.. I have had a couple of inline traditions in the past and they where fine rifles so I am not going to bash them..It could be something I am doing wrong,so I will take suggestions and work on it.I tried cci inline muzzleloading primers the first time and federal 209a shotgun primers the second time.

Try some alcohol patches or even run some boiling water through the bore that will strip all the lubricants out of the bore...

Then find the mildest 209 primers you can find like T7 primers and I think Winchester makes another ML Primers. But if you make the switch to BH-209 you will probably have to use hotter primers...

Shotgun Primers

Winchester 209ML ........................221 f.p.s.
Winchester 209 Triple Seven ML......244 f.p.s.
Remington 209 Kleanbore ML .........318 f.p.s.
Std. Winchester No. W209A ...........336 f.p.s.
Remington STS.............................338 f.p.s.
Std. Remington No. 209 ................341 f.p.s.
Cheddite No. 209 .........................347 f.p.s.
CCI 209M.....................................379 f.p.s.
Federal No. 209A ..........................381 f.p.s.

Rifle/Pistol Primers

Winchester WSP "Small Pistol" ….......116 f.p.s.
Winchester WSR "Small Rifle" ..........143 f.p.s

The culprit is potassium carbonate, a product of combustion. At high temperatures the potassium carbonate fuses to form a hard crud ring. Fusing of the potassium carbonate is caused by high environmental temperatures, large powder charges, hot primers, lubricants in the bore, some patch lubes, some conical lubes, and a failure to let the gun cool between shots; among other things.

Triple Seven is a hot burning powder. The gun heats up very fast, especially with large powder charges.

Recently i've started experimenting with my supply of Triple Seven powder. My .54 New Englander rifle loves 70 grains of Triple Seven and a patched round ball. It fires every time using a #11 Winchester magnum cap.

i'm also shooting 70-80 grains of Triple Seven and sabots in my .50 CVA StagHorn. The cap is the Winchester magnum #11.

i don't like to swab between shots, so generally i don't do that. The StagHorn has a pristine bore, i've fired as many as ten shots of Triple Seven from that gun without swabbing. Can't do that with the New Englander, maybe because the bore has some rust on the trailing edges of the rifling.

One day i tried Triple Seven in my .54 TC FireHawk. Forgot to swab the Militec lube from the bore before firing. In addition to the crud ring, the entire bore was coated with a very hard black crud. Removal of that crud required Windex with vinegar on a Scotch Brite patch. Took 20 minutes to get the bore clean.

Crud rings and seized breechplugs are why I moved off 777. I now use real blackpowder FFF and easy to clean, being both of my hunting MLs are inlines and not of the plunger/bolt action varieties.

I would do a couple things - scrub the bore down really well - make sure there is no oil or residue in there. Use a copper bore brush and really work it for awhile.

Second, try different primers. I've found that 777 primers give less of a crud ring (more expensive, though) with some of my rifles.

Having said that, IME some rifles just produce more of a crud ring than others, for whatever reason. I have an old .45 CVA that doesn't get the crud ring at all - I can shoot many, many times without swabbing. I have a Knight that I have to swab between every shot because of the bad crud ring, regardless of what I do.

You may just need to switch to another powder....

I had cleaned this pistol with a wire brush and Hoppes..This morning I went and got some ethanol,came home n scrubbed the barrel down real good.Got some crud like grease on my patches.After cleaning it.I went and shot it again.50 grains of triple 7, 3 f,250 grain Thompson center shock wave bullet in their yellow sabot and this time for primers,I used vari flame 209 adapter with a cci small rifle primer.I got 4 shots off with the bullets seating on the powder and on the mark of the ramrod.I was pleased,I might not have to use the vari flame,just a weaker 209 primer.I usually swab between shots,cause the first shot on game is usually taken with a clean rifle,but sometimes a quick second shot is needed..Personally I like triple seven,,it shoots well in most of my rifles,but I do have a 45 knight that is very picky with powder and bullets.Only gripe I have against Traditions is they need a little better customer service.Someone maybe more knowledgeable,who would have asked what primers I was using,but I guess the blame is on me for not cleaning the pistol better.Thats why we live and learn.I am a new guy on this site and would like to thank everyone for their ideas and help.

I have a range in my back yard.So after firing the pistol 4 times I bought it in and cleaned it.When I ran the patch down the barrel ,,I couldn't feel a crude ring.So I am a happy camper..I hunt with different rifles and for the most part,I hunt with white rifles.I have never had much of a crud ring with them,shooting musket caps.I am going to break down one day and buy some Blackhorn 209 and try it.I stared at it the other day at the local gun shop,,I was thinking to myself,that sure is a small bottle,,but I also noticed there was a lot of dust on the triple 7 and pyrodex.

From what I hear, Blackhorn 209 just puts their crud ring in a different place..... inside the breechplug. Every blackpowder substitute out there has it's own sets of pros and cons.

I cleaned the pistol up,grabbed some more bullets and sighted it in.I am no pistol man,once I had the pistol sighted in,I shot 11 times.I had about a 4 inch group,wiping between shots at 40 yards ,,no crud ring with the small rifle primers,some of my shots touched and I had one flyer,I think it was owner operator error.Next time I am out,going to pick up some low power shotgun primers and give them another try.

Make sure when you clean your breech plug you are using a small 3mm drill bit turned by hand to clean out the 'flash channel' directly under the primer. The small hole in the end of the BP is the 'flash hole" you should not need to do anything with it. the less you stick something through it the better.



I use a 'drill bit on a stick' for the job...

Some good information you have given me sabotloader.I will try a drill bit on my breach plug.Never cleaned any of my breach plugs like that before..

If everyone had the problems with crud-ring I did no one would use 777. The only thing I eve found that really made it useable in AR temperature and humidity is switching to pistol primers in a shortened cartridge case. Since that is one of the few things that's illegal here it does not work for hunting.
Swiss black Pyrodex or Blackhorn are soo much nicer and on top of that in this area 777 cost me just as much as Blackhorn and its getting to the point where its harder to find. I still use Pyrodex in my traditional rifles I tried using 777 and it eats patches so bad I had to use wads to protect them and that's somewhere between ridicules and self-defeating.

Can I use that stick for my corndogs too? ;) :p

You know that really bugs me a bit... I was sure that the sales of BH would drive the price of T7 down with the popularity and demand for BH. Thought it might be a real boom for me but the opposite is happening. Hodgdon's is increasing the price! Around this area it has gone from $20 a pound to $24 and you would think the opposite should be happening.

BH is still hanging in there at about $32 for a 10 ounce bottle of powder. So at least it is holding the line.

At the local gun shop I go to triple seven was 19 a pound and Blackhorn was 31,local Wal Mart triple 7 is 24 a pound.When I went into Dicks Sporting Goods to see if they had any sales on Black powder supplies.I thought I was in a different world,all the powder was 40 bucks or more and the bullets where up there.Muzzleloading used to be inexpensive.Only one place a round my area that sells Black Powder that I know of and I don't have a clue how much it is.I guess I will soon find out,since I am going to get the flint lock off the wall.

Sabot Loader,

I've seen rankings of primers from coolest to hottest, but haven't seen this f.p.s data before. What is the f.p.s. data? Is this the velocity of some projectile shot with the primer only? In a shotgun or a muzzle loader? Did you do the testing?

Regards, Bill

Bill, I did not do the testing. It was from a 50 cal ML shooting a measured projectile only through a chrono.

I am not sure what the projectile was but it was the same projectile for each test.

mike

Quite a while ago, i set up in my garage, and shot sabots propelled by primer only through a chronograph. The speeds kinda sorta closely match the speeds posted by sabotloader. It was difficult to get repeatable data, but in the end it seemed i succeeded. One thing i can write with certainty, is my results agree perfectly with those posted by sabotloader, as far as ranking primers.

The thing that surprised me the most when i did my test, was how filthy the different prmers were, and how they plugged the flame channel so much. The breech plug had to be removed, and a drill used, to scrape away the deposit in the flame channel, in order to continue with the test.

The dents in the garage door, made by the sabot, are still there.