BH209 Fouling for 1st shot accuracy--report and ??
01-22-2015, 04:59 PM
#41
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,922
Instead of developing the next Mr. Flintlock Lube, someone needs to develop / patent a six ounce jar of Fouled Bore Slop.
Then watch Cabelas blackpowder section cash registers go cha-ching, cha-ching, cha-ching....... the inventor's bank accounts too.
Then watch Cabelas blackpowder section cash registers go cha-ching, cha-ching, cha-ching....... the inventor's bank accounts too.
01-22-2015, 05:32 PM
#42
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Rapid City, South Dakota
Posts: 3,732
Here lately i have been shooting about 15 shots nearly every morning. Mostly why, is to verify the second QRBP breech plug that was converted over to use rifle primers will work reliably. Each morning the shooting has begun with a cold clean barrel. Each morning the results have been quite similar. Often the first shot is the lowest shot, but not always. The target from this morning follows.
The group including the first shot measures 1/8" larger than the group measured not including the first shot. No swabbing was done whilst shooting. The only shot fired from a cold clean barrel was the first. Similar results have been happening each of several previous mornings.
Now, i have been reading this forum for years now, and i realize some will say/think that this rifle happens to be one, that puts the first shot the same place as the following shots. Many will say/think most rifles won't put the first shot with the following shots.
Last year, before hunting season started, i was shooting two other rifles that did the same as this one. The first shot from a cold clean barrel hit close to the following shots, from the fouled barrel, without swabbing. At that time i tried all kind of tricks to try and get the first shot to group with the following shots. Things like popping primers, before loading, using special regimen, and such. In the end, all the tricks seemed fruitless, and i just resorted to shooting the first shot from a cold clean barrel.
It seems i own 3 rifles that put the first shot from a cold clean barrel into the same grouping as the following shots, without swabbing, between shots. Well, i can't help wondering why. It seems to me, most shooters oil their barrels with something. Well, i don't. My rifles are cleaned with a 2-in-1 bore cleaner, which supposedly leaves a protective coating. Whether this affects the first clean shot being in the same group as the following shots... I just don't know, but it is what i do. Me, i don't believe it is using the large rifle magnum primers, instead of shotgun primers, that has the first shot flying like the rest of the shots.
The group including the first shot measures 1/8" larger than the group measured not including the first shot. No swabbing was done whilst shooting. The only shot fired from a cold clean barrel was the first. Similar results have been happening each of several previous mornings.
Now, i have been reading this forum for years now, and i realize some will say/think that this rifle happens to be one, that puts the first shot the same place as the following shots. Many will say/think most rifles won't put the first shot with the following shots.
Last year, before hunting season started, i was shooting two other rifles that did the same as this one. The first shot from a cold clean barrel hit close to the following shots, from the fouled barrel, without swabbing. At that time i tried all kind of tricks to try and get the first shot to group with the following shots. Things like popping primers, before loading, using special regimen, and such. In the end, all the tricks seemed fruitless, and i just resorted to shooting the first shot from a cold clean barrel.
It seems i own 3 rifles that put the first shot from a cold clean barrel into the same grouping as the following shots, without swabbing, between shots. Well, i can't help wondering why. It seems to me, most shooters oil their barrels with something. Well, i don't. My rifles are cleaned with a 2-in-1 bore cleaner, which supposedly leaves a protective coating. Whether this affects the first clean shot being in the same group as the following shots... I just don't know, but it is what i do. Me, i don't believe it is using the large rifle magnum primers, instead of shotgun primers, that has the first shot flying like the rest of the shots.
01-22-2015, 06:15 PM
#43
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,922
What was the longest you stored a ML in your gun safe, with a bore protected only by B.C. 2 In 1 Bore Cleaner?
I live in humid Michigan, surrounded by the Great Lakes. If I were to patch my bore with 2 In 1 and put the ML away for six months, would I find a brown bore when I yanked that ML from the gun safe in August?
I live in humid Michigan, surrounded by the Great Lakes. If I were to patch my bore with 2 In 1 and put the ML away for six months, would I find a brown bore when I yanked that ML from the gun safe in August?
01-22-2015, 06:59 PM
#44
Fork Horn
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 205
Txhunter 58 you are right I like cleaning my gun as much as I like shooting it. I have a .54 Renegade and to shoot POA to POI I had to foul the gun, otherwise if I aimed at the lungs I would shoot under the deer. The bad thing about fouling my gun, especially if it were humid or raining was that I was worried to death about my barrel and surface rust that was occurring. At the end of the day I would shoot it out and clean it when I got home and load it for the next day. After that I decided I would not hunt on a fouled barrel. I don't mean to offend anyone by describing my procedure, all I am trying to do is help someone else that doesn't have a place to foul their guns, if all else fails. Sometimes I feel I am defending myself and my procedure, that is not what I want to do. Thank you for allowing me my procedure. Now if I have a bad group I can't blame it on the barrel, or the breech plug, or trigger etc. its all on me.
Ronlaughlin I think anyone would want to hunt with your gun after seeing your groups. I like the XTP also great bullet.
Ronlaughlin I think anyone would want to hunt with your gun after seeing your groups. I like the XTP also great bullet.
Last edited by d.winsor; 01-22-2015 at 07:15 PM.
01-23-2015, 03:29 AM
#45
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Virginia / West Virginia
Posts: 4,906
d.winsor
I think what you have figured out for your guns is good. I mean really...think about it. Sure, it might be more work if you are shooting a bunch in a range session (quite a bit more actually) but once you have a rifle ready for hunting - is it really that much more work? I mean once its sighted in and cleaned (using your procedure) you are good to go on a clean bore for the first shot with no flier. Load her up and hunt. Not like you have tons of work to do there... and if you shoot it, clean it up and its ready again, if you don't you can leave it loaded.
I personally won't fire fouling shots in my guns. My hunting style that wouldn't work anyhow. Much of the season I hunt at a moments notice, often 3-4 times a week for a couple hours here and there. Could be a couple days in a row, every other or third day, etc. Firing fouling shots and loading/cleaning every time - no way. I load my guns on a clean barrel and don't unload them till I fire at a deer or the season is over.
I think its interesting hearing how folks handle the first shot fliers, lots of different ways. I guess I've been lucky...but I've never had a gun that has had bad fliers like some report. My thought is I would either sight it in so that the first shot it dead on (on a clean barrel), or work to figure out a way to minimize that problem so that its acceptable.
I think what you have figured out for your guns is good. I mean really...think about it. Sure, it might be more work if you are shooting a bunch in a range session (quite a bit more actually) but once you have a rifle ready for hunting - is it really that much more work? I mean once its sighted in and cleaned (using your procedure) you are good to go on a clean bore for the first shot with no flier. Load her up and hunt. Not like you have tons of work to do there... and if you shoot it, clean it up and its ready again, if you don't you can leave it loaded.
I personally won't fire fouling shots in my guns. My hunting style that wouldn't work anyhow. Much of the season I hunt at a moments notice, often 3-4 times a week for a couple hours here and there. Could be a couple days in a row, every other or third day, etc. Firing fouling shots and loading/cleaning every time - no way. I load my guns on a clean barrel and don't unload them till I fire at a deer or the season is over.
I think its interesting hearing how folks handle the first shot fliers, lots of different ways. I guess I've been lucky...but I've never had a gun that has had bad fliers like some report. My thought is I would either sight it in so that the first shot it dead on (on a clean barrel), or work to figure out a way to minimize that problem so that its acceptable.
01-23-2015, 03:40 AM
#46
Typical Buck
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Kansas
Posts: 921
I use the same 2n1 cleaner but use BC Barricade for storage. The oil probably is the culprit. I'd sure like to find a solution. It appears shooting a couple of fouling shots is best but not always practical.
01-23-2015, 03:57 AM
#47
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Rapid City, South Dakota
Posts: 3,732
I have had this nagging thought about 'that first shot' for awhile now.
The first shot is the first shot for the shooter too. Often, i wonder if the shooter doesn't do as well, executing the 'that first shot', as the following shots. Me i try, and try, to properly execute the first shot, but sometimes, it seems i benefit from the way the first shot felt, on the second shot. Some times when i fire the third shot, it seems like i finally know how to shoot a rifle. There are times when the rifle fires, i feel i executed the shot perfectly. Other times i kinda 'know' i didn't do good. Most times, i feel i could have done better on the first shot.
One would think that 'knowing' the first shot may not be executed as well as the second, would allow one to execute better on the first shot... actually i think it does.
The first shot is the first shot for the shooter too. Often, i wonder if the shooter doesn't do as well, executing the 'that first shot', as the following shots. Me i try, and try, to properly execute the first shot, but sometimes, it seems i benefit from the way the first shot felt, on the second shot. Some times when i fire the third shot, it seems like i finally know how to shoot a rifle. There are times when the rifle fires, i feel i executed the shot perfectly. Other times i kinda 'know' i didn't do good. Most times, i feel i could have done better on the first shot.
One would think that 'knowing' the first shot may not be executed as well as the second, would allow one to execute better on the first shot... actually i think it does.
01-23-2015, 04:26 AM
#48
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,922
Ron
Your opinion on my post at 10:15 PM?
Your theory / past practices using 2 In 1 and not getting flyers is interesting. But nobody wants to gamble with their MLs, concerning possible rust.
(case-in-point)
A ML owner decided to soak his bore in Hoppe's Elite gun cleaner longer than instructed on the label. Figured he would get more copper fouling out by leaving it for two weeks.
Bad Bad idea. His patches afterwards were brown. Your 2 in 1 method appears to have some protection in that spray can. I use the same B.C. 2 In 1 Cleaner. But I've never trusted it as a final storage product.
Your opinion on my post at 10:15 PM?
Your theory / past practices using 2 In 1 and not getting flyers is interesting. But nobody wants to gamble with their MLs, concerning possible rust.
(case-in-point)
A ML owner decided to soak his bore in Hoppe's Elite gun cleaner longer than instructed on the label. Figured he would get more copper fouling out by leaving it for two weeks.
Bad Bad idea. His patches afterwards were brown. Your 2 in 1 method appears to have some protection in that spray can. I use the same B.C. 2 In 1 Cleaner. But I've never trusted it as a final storage product.
Last edited by Triple Se7en; 01-23-2015 at 04:30 AM.
01-23-2015, 04:52 AM
#49
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Near a lake with no fish
Posts: 1,077
I have had this nagging thought about 'that first shot' for awhile now.
The first shot is the first shot for the shooter too. Often, i wonder if the shooter doesn't do as well, executing the 'that first shot', as the following shots. Me i try, and try, to properly execute the first shot, but sometimes, it seems i benefit from the way the first shot felt, on the second shot. Some times when i fire the third shot, it seems like i finally know how to shoot a rifle. There are times when the rifle fires, i feel i executed the shot perfectly. Other times i kinda 'know' i didn't do good. Most times, i feel i could have done better on the first shot.
One would think that 'knowing' the first shot may not be executed as well as the second, would allow one to execute better on the first shot... actually i think it does.
The first shot is the first shot for the shooter too. Often, i wonder if the shooter doesn't do as well, executing the 'that first shot', as the following shots. Me i try, and try, to properly execute the first shot, but sometimes, it seems i benefit from the way the first shot felt, on the second shot. Some times when i fire the third shot, it seems like i finally know how to shoot a rifle. There are times when the rifle fires, i feel i executed the shot perfectly. Other times i kinda 'know' i didn't do good. Most times, i feel i could have done better on the first shot.
One would think that 'knowing' the first shot may not be executed as well as the second, would allow one to execute better on the first shot... actually i think it does.
The example of how a Pro Hunter I owned shot is I believe in post #16. That was a 100% repeatable target from a completely clean (as would be stored) from that rifle and was actually shot specific to show how that rifle shot clean vs fouled. I tried every way to get that rifle to shoot the first shot accurately and match the following rounds and it was impossible. With a 200yd shot possible as my first hunting shot, I was required to foul the barrel. Thankfully I was shooting BH.
Some rifles just require fouling shots, where others do not. I'm not one to shoot one round, COMPLETELY clean the barrel (as to be stored) and then shoot another round, repeat the process, to try and zero the scope.
I'm more of the opinion that the fouling changes how the sabot/bullet contacts the rifling or obturates. Could it be similar to the shift in POI when changing the durometer of a sabot, even of equal diameter?
Of all the rifles I've had over the years, I finally have one now that shoots to the same POI clean vs fouled. I must admit, I like that.
01-23-2015, 09:27 AM
#50
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,703
Although this really doesn't apply, because it is in reference to centerfire competitors. I have never seen a match shooter start shooting a competition target with a cold clean bore. They do count the number of shots taken and at a given interval for the bore they are shooting - they do clean the bore and then re-fowl the barrel before continuing.
I really do not shoot that much BH so I can not really make any suggestions or comparisons. I do, however, shoot a lot of T7 and find the first shot on a cold clean barrel can on some occasions be slightly out of the group - not ever enough that it would be a problem in the normal hunting situation unless the shot was at an extreme range.
And my normal hunting routine has already been described by another poster, in that pre-season I will shoot 3-5 shots to check POI. And after that I will run, in my case a barely damp Windex, patch to clear the bulk of the fouling. Then I will reload the rifle for hunting and in bad years it could stay that way for a couple of months. So in essence I am shooting a semi-fouled barrel.
If at any time I feel the powder or the bore has been compromised with moisture I will either shoot the load out or pull it - then run a Windex patch and re-load.
I really do not shoot that much BH so I can not really make any suggestions or comparisons. I do, however, shoot a lot of T7 and find the first shot on a cold clean barrel can on some occasions be slightly out of the group - not ever enough that it would be a problem in the normal hunting situation unless the shot was at an extreme range.
And my normal hunting routine has already been described by another poster, in that pre-season I will shoot 3-5 shots to check POI. And after that I will run, in my case a barely damp Windex, patch to clear the bulk of the fouling. Then I will reload the rifle for hunting and in bad years it could stay that way for a couple of months. So in essence I am shooting a semi-fouled barrel.
If at any time I feel the powder or the bore has been compromised with moisture I will either shoot the load out or pull it - then run a Windex patch and re-load.