Using Blackhorn with CVA Hex Head breech plug - problems!
12-23-2014, 07:43 AM
#1
Spike
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Ohio
Posts: 6
Using Blackhorn with CVA Hex Head breech plug - problems!
Hi, first time poster here. I found this forum when searching on some problems I am having when trying to use Blackhorn 209 powder with my pre-2010 CVA Wolf with hex head breech plug. My head is spinning with all the conflicting info. I've read on the web in the last 24 hours. I've got the right BP. I've got the wrong BP. I'm using the right primers. I'm using the wrong primers. Please help!
Here is my set-up: CVA Wolf (model before the QRBP). I am primarily a bowhunter but I got this gun a few years ago to extend the season for my kids beyond just the 6 day shotgun season here in Ohio. I previously had limited them to shots under 50 yards, but as they've gotten older and stronger I wanted to give them some additional range. We were previously shooting 80 grains of 777 powder and Hornady SST Low-Drag 250 gr. sabots. Without a lot of load tinkering, the best group I could get at 100 yards was around 6", not good enough for my liking. Between that and the amount of cleaning with the 777 that was driving me crazy and then I read about BH 209, and I wanted to give it a try. Well, it arrived and yesterday I went to give it a try.
I got 2 clean fires, 2 hang-fires and about 6 NO fires. Forgot to mention, I'm using Winchester W209 primers. Never had the first problem with them when using 777 powder. Had a range session with them and 777 powder about a week ago and no problem.
I came home from the range yesterday thoroughly frustrated, started reading on the web, saw that my bp isn't compatible with BH209 for consistent ignition. Also found instructions on "mechanical" cleaning of bp to see if that would help. I did that and it didn't change anything, got another NO fire.
I called CVA this morning and explained which gun/plug I was using, and the guy said "sorry, BH209 won't work with the OEM hex-head bp".
I then called Western Powder and asked them the same thing. The guy I talked to there (Don, I think his name was) said that my bp SHOULD be compatible with BH209. He was at a loss to explain my misfires except that maybe there was some moisture in the barrel when I loaded the BH209. I had been using T&C "conditioning & seasoning" patches to swab and clean when using 777 powder so I thought maybe that was causing moisture that was keeping the BH209 from igniting properly. I dry-swabbed the barrel multiple times to test out that theory and tried again. Before loading, I fired a few primers just to make sure everything was dry in there. Still NO fire. Incidentally, I was NOT swabbing between the few shots with BH209 where the powder actually ignited (twice immediately, and twice hang-fires)
I found a recent thread here: http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/blac...uestion-3.html where user ronlaughlin posted a photo on page 3 of 3 different breech plugs. The one on the left in the photo is the one that I have, the one he says is "unreliable igniting Blackhorn". He says the one in the middle WILL reliably ignite Blackhorn, but he didn't mention if that plug is something commercially available or a custom modification or what. I'd really like to shoot Blackhorn powder but would rather not buy a new gun in order to be able to do so! Can anyone help point me in the right direction and clarify the conflicting information I have been reading?
THANKS!
Here is my set-up: CVA Wolf (model before the QRBP). I am primarily a bowhunter but I got this gun a few years ago to extend the season for my kids beyond just the 6 day shotgun season here in Ohio. I previously had limited them to shots under 50 yards, but as they've gotten older and stronger I wanted to give them some additional range. We were previously shooting 80 grains of 777 powder and Hornady SST Low-Drag 250 gr. sabots. Without a lot of load tinkering, the best group I could get at 100 yards was around 6", not good enough for my liking. Between that and the amount of cleaning with the 777 that was driving me crazy and then I read about BH 209, and I wanted to give it a try. Well, it arrived and yesterday I went to give it a try.
I got 2 clean fires, 2 hang-fires and about 6 NO fires. Forgot to mention, I'm using Winchester W209 primers. Never had the first problem with them when using 777 powder. Had a range session with them and 777 powder about a week ago and no problem.
I came home from the range yesterday thoroughly frustrated, started reading on the web, saw that my bp isn't compatible with BH209 for consistent ignition. Also found instructions on "mechanical" cleaning of bp to see if that would help. I did that and it didn't change anything, got another NO fire.
I called CVA this morning and explained which gun/plug I was using, and the guy said "sorry, BH209 won't work with the OEM hex-head bp".
I then called Western Powder and asked them the same thing. The guy I talked to there (Don, I think his name was) said that my bp SHOULD be compatible with BH209. He was at a loss to explain my misfires except that maybe there was some moisture in the barrel when I loaded the BH209. I had been using T&C "conditioning & seasoning" patches to swab and clean when using 777 powder so I thought maybe that was causing moisture that was keeping the BH209 from igniting properly. I dry-swabbed the barrel multiple times to test out that theory and tried again. Before loading, I fired a few primers just to make sure everything was dry in there. Still NO fire. Incidentally, I was NOT swabbing between the few shots with BH209 where the powder actually ignited (twice immediately, and twice hang-fires)
I found a recent thread here: http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/blac...uestion-3.html where user ronlaughlin posted a photo on page 3 of 3 different breech plugs. The one on the left in the photo is the one that I have, the one he says is "unreliable igniting Blackhorn". He says the one in the middle WILL reliably ignite Blackhorn, but he didn't mention if that plug is something commercially available or a custom modification or what. I'd really like to shoot Blackhorn powder but would rather not buy a new gun in order to be able to do so! Can anyone help point me in the right direction and clarify the conflicting information I have been reading?
THANKS!
12-23-2014, 07:50 AM
#2
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Eastern PA
Posts: 12,746
why don't you send Ron a private message. I'm sure he will help you out. He is pretty knowledgeable when it comes to BH209.
As for the moisture - I don't think that's the problem. I thought I read somewhere where BH209 is pretty resistant to collecting moisture (not hydro-scopic like black powder or other substitutes).
As for the moisture - I don't think that's the problem. I thought I read somewhere where BH209 is pretty resistant to collecting moisture (not hydro-scopic like black powder or other substitutes).
12-23-2014, 08:23 AM
#3
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Rapid City, South Dakota
Posts: 3,732
.....I called CVA this morning and explained which gun/plug I was using, and the guy said "sorry, BH209 won't work with the OEM hex-head bp".
I then called Western Powder and asked them the same thing. The guy I talked to there (Don, I think his name was) said that my bp SHOULD be compatible with BH209........
THANKS!
I then called Western Powder and asked them the same thing. The guy I talked to there (Don, I think his name was) said that my bp SHOULD be compatible with BH209........
THANKS!
At any rate your plug can be improved. Your plug can be made 100% reliable igniting Blackhorn. Here is what i have done to dozens, and dozens of plugs sent me by frustrated CVA owners...
This modification will allow you to reliably shoot Blackhorn in any weather. It has been tested at -15. You can also reliably use any shotgun primer.
If you have the tools, and the desire, Here is one way you can do the job.
Contact me via a PM and I can help you fix it.
Last edited by JW; 12-23-2014 at 03:37 PM. Reason: Edited by JW
12-23-2014, 09:12 AM
#4
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 21,193
I had to purchase a Black Horn Friendly plug for my Optima and then use very hot primers. The CCI and the Remington STS primers and then I have no ignition problems. But also you have to take a drill bit and scrape the carbon out of the flash channel after five shots or so.
When the Black Horn is done, my Optima will be a Triple Seven rifle. I don't mind swabbing.
When the Black Horn is done, my Optima will be a Triple Seven rifle. I don't mind swabbing.
12-23-2014, 09:33 AM
#5
Spike
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Ohio
Posts: 6
Well, i am surprised Don told you the plug should work...he knows better. He probably didn't understand the plug you have, or maybe they had their office party last night.
At any rate your plug can be improved. Your plug can be made 100% reliable igniting Blackhorn. Here is what i have done to dozens, and dozens of plugs sent me by frustrated CVA owners...
This modification will allow you to reliably shoot Blackhorn in any weather. It has been tested at -15. You can also reliably use any shotgun primer.
If you have the tools, and the desire, Here is one way you can do the job.
If you wish, send me a PM and I can help you.
At any rate your plug can be improved. Your plug can be made 100% reliable igniting Blackhorn. Here is what i have done to dozens, and dozens of plugs sent me by frustrated CVA owners...
This modification will allow you to reliably shoot Blackhorn in any weather. It has been tested at -15. You can also reliably use any shotgun primer.
If you have the tools, and the desire, Here is one way you can do the job.
If you wish, send me a PM and I can help you.
Also, I'm assuming that the mod you make will still allow you to shoot other powders just fine, too, not just the Blackhorn?
Last edited by JW; 12-23-2014 at 03:41 PM. Reason: edited by JW for advertising
12-23-2014, 12:47 PM
#6
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Rapid City, South Dakota
Posts: 3,732
Well, i can't say this is the only way you can successfully shoot Blackhorn in your rifle, because it is the only modification i have ever tried. Doing this modification has worked perfectly for me, so i never tried anything else. I have read about folks enlarging the flash hole with a # 65 drill, and then using magnum primers.. this supposedly worked. The flash hole grows with every shot, so enlarging it with a drill, isn't something i could do with good conscience.
Keep in mind the modification i do, allows one to replace the vent liner with a new one, when the flash hole gets to be too large. Another benefit of the modification is the diameter of the flame channel is increased to 5/32". The larger the flame channel, the more of the pressure from ignition it can absorb, and this reduces the pressure on the primer. The larger flame channel also allows more shots between cleaning. Another good thing about this modification is it allows one to use any shotgun primer. Any shotgun primer that is available for purchase locally will work. One doesn't need to search for magnum primers, or any specific brand, if they aren't readily available.
To clean the modified breech plug i remove the vent liner, then from the primer end, spin a 5/32" drill in a drill motor through the carbon build in the flame channel. Quick and easy it is. The wall of the flame channel, guides the drill, so it doesn't damage the threads. Then a soaking in a solvent loosens the soot left on the plug, so it can be easily removed.
Blackhorn is the only powder i have used ever since it was available for purchase, so i cannot say with first hand experience, the modified plug will allow you to shoot other powders. However, i have read that the modification allows one to shoot all other powders, including pellets.. True or no, i cannot say.
Keep in mind the modification i do, allows one to replace the vent liner with a new one, when the flash hole gets to be too large. Another benefit of the modification is the diameter of the flame channel is increased to 5/32". The larger the flame channel, the more of the pressure from ignition it can absorb, and this reduces the pressure on the primer. The larger flame channel also allows more shots between cleaning. Another good thing about this modification is it allows one to use any shotgun primer. Any shotgun primer that is available for purchase locally will work. One doesn't need to search for magnum primers, or any specific brand, if they aren't readily available.
To clean the modified breech plug i remove the vent liner, then from the primer end, spin a 5/32" drill in a drill motor through the carbon build in the flame channel. Quick and easy it is. The wall of the flame channel, guides the drill, so it doesn't damage the threads. Then a soaking in a solvent loosens the soot left on the plug, so it can be easily removed.
Blackhorn is the only powder i have used ever since it was available for purchase, so i cannot say with first hand experience, the modified plug will allow you to shoot other powders. However, i have read that the modification allows one to shoot all other powders, including pellets.. True or no, i cannot say.
12-23-2014, 03:51 PM
#7
Fork Horn
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 205
Here is one place you can order the CVA Blackhorn BH 209 Plug: http://www.lg-outdoors.com/proddetail.asp?prod=SS_82287
It uses a 1/8" drill bit to clean the flame channel (or flash channel) Clean about every 6 shots, easy to do. Twist the bit by your hand only, no power drill. Wrap black electrical tape around the shank until you can grip it firmly.
With this plug and BH 209 you won't have any problems.
To clean the breech plug use T/C Breech plug cleaner or Slip 2000 choke tube cleaner which I think does a better job. Before you soak the breech plug be sure to run the drill bit in the flash channel, when finished wipe it off and oil it lightly then wipe off any excess. I like to use Teflon Tape on my Breech plug it is cleaner than grease and if you have to push a load out the breech you won't get powder in the threads. Makes for a messy clean up. Many people use the Breech Plug grease and are happy with it. I just don't like cleaning grease out of the barrel threads. Just My Opinion.
It uses a 1/8" drill bit to clean the flame channel (or flash channel) Clean about every 6 shots, easy to do. Twist the bit by your hand only, no power drill. Wrap black electrical tape around the shank until you can grip it firmly.
With this plug and BH 209 you won't have any problems.
To clean the breech plug use T/C Breech plug cleaner or Slip 2000 choke tube cleaner which I think does a better job. Before you soak the breech plug be sure to run the drill bit in the flash channel, when finished wipe it off and oil it lightly then wipe off any excess. I like to use Teflon Tape on my Breech plug it is cleaner than grease and if you have to push a load out the breech you won't get powder in the threads. Makes for a messy clean up. Many people use the Breech Plug grease and are happy with it. I just don't like cleaning grease out of the barrel threads. Just My Opinion.
Last edited by d.winsor; 12-23-2014 at 04:54 PM.
12-23-2014, 05:08 PM
#8
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,703
ohdeernut
I would suggest if you were going to purchase a BH plug for a CVA - Check out the plug built for Western Powders, although I am not sure that they have the Hex Head plug. It is a better plug than the one built by CVA... better yet have Ron do it for you, probably less money and just as effective.
These two CVA plugs, I modified for a friend and they both have proven to work great. The one on the right seems to reduce blow back a little more because it can hold more volume of blowback before forcing the primer back. The one on the left is more the conventional way of completing the project.
I would suggest if you were going to purchase a BH plug for a CVA - Check out the plug built for Western Powders, although I am not sure that they have the Hex Head plug. It is a better plug than the one built by CVA... better yet have Ron do it for you, probably less money and just as effective.
These two CVA plugs, I modified for a friend and they both have proven to work great. The one on the right seems to reduce blow back a little more because it can hold more volume of blowback before forcing the primer back. The one on the left is more the conventional way of completing the project.
Last edited by sabotloader; 12-23-2014 at 05:13 PM.
12-23-2014, 05:10 PM
#9
Spike
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 50
Here is one place you can order the CVA Blackhorn BH 209 Plug: http://www.lg-outdoors.com/proddetail.asp?prod=SS_82287
It uses a 1/8" drill bit to clean the flame channel (or flash channel) Clean about every 6 shots, easy to do. Twist the bit by your hand only, no power drill. Wrap black electrical tape around the shank until you can grip it firmly.
With this plug and BH 209 you won't have any problems.
To clean the breech plug use T/C Breech plug cleaner or Slip 2000 choke tube cleaner which I think does a better job. Before you soak the breech plug be sure to run the drill bit in the flash channel, when finished wipe it off and oil it lightly then wipe off any excess. I like to use Teflon Tape on my Breech plug it is cleaner than grease and if you have to push a load out the breech you won't get powder in the threads. Makes for a messy clean up. Many people use the Breech Plug grease and are happy with it. I just don't like cleaning grease out of the barrel threads. Just My Opinion.
It uses a 1/8" drill bit to clean the flame channel (or flash channel) Clean about every 6 shots, easy to do. Twist the bit by your hand only, no power drill. Wrap black electrical tape around the shank until you can grip it firmly.
With this plug and BH 209 you won't have any problems.
To clean the breech plug use T/C Breech plug cleaner or Slip 2000 choke tube cleaner which I think does a better job. Before you soak the breech plug be sure to run the drill bit in the flash channel, when finished wipe it off and oil it lightly then wipe off any excess. I like to use Teflon Tape on my Breech plug it is cleaner than grease and if you have to push a load out the breech you won't get powder in the threads. Makes for a messy clean up. Many people use the Breech Plug grease and are happy with it. I just don't like cleaning grease out of the barrel threads. Just My Opinion.
Dave
