Encore question
 

Okay guys...what might be causeing this? Seems to be an excessive amount of burn for the location. My primers seem burnt too, local smith thought maybe my nipple was burnt out? There's less than a hundred rounds through this gun, never drilled the breech plug. Using federal primers. I emailed TC 3 days ago and got 1 email back asking how much powder I was using, 120 gr of blackhorn.

Okay, I guess the file didn't load, but I am getting powder burns on the barrelin front of my hammer where the gun breats open, stains on my scope too. I can't get it to load off my phone, if somebody wants me to email it I can

Well, there is no way any one can know from afar what your issue is, however, you wrote you have never 'drilled' your plug. If you have never used a 1/8" drill to remove carbon from the flame channel of your breech plug, it is no wonder you have blow back. It is possible if you use a 1/8" drill in the flame channel, and remove the carbon build, you will have no blow back anymore. All you need do is spin the drill by hand, but if the carbon is so thick, you may need to start with a 1/16" drill first.

You are getting blowby around the Federal 209 primer. Federal primers caused blowby with my Encore. The Winchester 209 primers do not. But i'm not sure Winchester primers will ignite BlackHorn.

When I said "drilled" I meant I never expaneed the firing hole like I hear of some guys doing. I'll give cleaning it out a try. I know the BH takes a hot primer, and I never had an issue with the federals so I didn't see a need to try anything else.

The chamber that the primer sits in is clean, no buildup. I'm more concerned about a safety to shoot issue, it was driving tacks the other day

Its safe to shoot, but you may have to shim the breech face out and shim kits can be purchased that drop right in easily. You must be able to close the action without crushing the primer.

In in MI and as cold as it will be....... I would suggest you shoot magnum primers, for which you will need to chip the carbon from the flame channel, using the information provided above. T/C..... 1/8"

Cleaning the flash channel......

I tried numerous times to post the photo of head spacing and it wouldn't load in the previous post. Kept coming back as I had removed it????? To much in one post........

NOTE: Although the photo below shows a CF case in the chamber, the head space is the distance from the breech face to the primer, same with a muzz.

W209 primers will ignite bh209 at close to zero degrees from my experience.

No disagreement but........ if you want 100% reliable ignition 100% of the time, the magnum primers should be used in most cases in extreme cold. There's a reason Western recommends magnum primers. BH is actually a smokeless propellant and must have the bullet compressed on the propellant hard for consistent ignition and groups. Magnum primers use higher pressure than standard primers, thus ignition is more consistent.

I have had 100% reliable ignition 100% of the time with W209 primers. Your not telling me anything I don't know about bh209. Zero degree, wet, nasty weather is not the worst conditions but isn't exactly warm or mild weather either. Powder ignition is not solely based upon the type of primer you use either. Seal and breechplug design plays important roles as well. I'm just stating my experience. You say if I want 100% ignition 100% of the time I have to use a magnum primer. Not from what I have seen.

Yes, there is a reason, and what it is, is all the phone calls and emails from disgruntled CVA owners, because their rifles wouldn't reliably shoot Blackhorn powder. Not knowing what to do, but trying to satisfy, Western Powders made the obvious recommendation.. use magnum primers.

Later they learned the problem was the breech plug. So they came out with a better breech plug design. Outwardly the Western Powders breech plug looks nothing like the Omega/Encore breech plug, but inwardly this new QRBP has virtually the same dimensions as the old Omega/Encore breech plug. It has the same diameter, and length flame channel, and the same flash hole.

Magnum primers never were required when using the old Omega/Encore breech plug, nor are they required now. Nor are magnum primers required when using the Blackhorn QRBP plug.

Some myths seem to die hard, and the myth that magnum primers are needed to ignite Blackhorn is such a myth.

Ignition issues when using Blackhorn are not primer issues, rather they are breech plug design issues.

It is a simple matter to slightly modify the old CVA breech plug, and the QRBP, so that they reliably ignite Blackhorn. There are several old thread on this forum showing solutions that are 100% reliable igniting Blackhorn. None of these solutions require the use of Magnum primers. These solutions use standard shotgun primers to ignite Blackhorn in temperatures as cold as -15. None of these solutions involve drilling the flash hole larger, and shortening the life of the breech plug neither.

I'm with Falcon, got blow by with CCI and Federal primer switched to Winchester 209 and solved the problem and works just fine with Blackhorn 209

Let me see...... I think I mentioned that I didn't disagree in the post, right?

Shooting up to 4,000 rounds of BH per year, I have some knowledge, however I'm not an expert.

Ron.......... have you ever shot a standard WIN209 primer through a chronograph with a WEIGHTED charge, then shot he identical weighed charge using a magnum primer? What were the velocity differences and POI differences? Identical bullet of course, using identical bullet seating pressure. Using the identical weighed charge and bullet, test it also using WIN209 primers, then a magnum primer but, use different bullet seating pressures. Seat a series of each using 90# seating force, then seat another set using 35# force. What would be the differences in velocity and POI?

Again, I'm not disagreeing that a WIN209 won't ignite BH. I've done it myself hundreds of times. However, the most reliable ignition is from the higher pressure magnum primers. Just as pointed out, dedicated muzzleloader primers won't ignite BH consistently, because of their very light pressures. Standard 209 primers have a slightly higher pressure, where as magnum primers have the highest pressures. When that buck of a lifetime is standing there in extreme cold weather, I'd much rather have a magnum primer....

No, never. Never do i weigh charges. Nor do i know what the seating force of any of my loadings is. There are a lot of things i don't know.

What i do know is this... if i pull the trigger on the buck of a lifetime and it happens to be -15 degrees, the W209 primer in my rifle will instantaneously ignite the Blackhorn powder in the barrel. This i know because i have shot several different rifles, several different times, on several different below zero mornings, several different years, using several different well designed breech plugs, always using W209 primers, or STS primers, and never never never experienced the very very slightest hang fire, let alone a misfire.

The only issues i have ever experienced whilst shooting Blackhorn powder occurred when using OEM CVA hex head breech plugs, plus i did notice a couple so very very slight hang fires in bitter cold weather, one winter with a Triumph.

There will be no more study done by me of shotgun primers, because i am satisfied with my data, and conclusions.

These days i am learning all i can about the Federal 215 large rifle magnum primer. It seems the one breech plug i am using in several rifles, will never wear out. The flash hole doesn't grow. The soot in the flame channel is soft. Thus far i can find no drawbacks. Now.. what i could worry about, is what to do with the 6000 or so W209 primers out in the shop.

If a Win209 works fine igniting smokeless in my Savage and a regular CCI209 ignites it just fine in my ULA, i dont understand why either would have a issue igniting BH209 in a well designed smoker breach plug.

I have had encores for years and used Win 209 reloading primers most of the time never have had a misfire. The win 209 is a bit longer than the other 209 primers and seals better. I believe TC designed their guns for the win 209 because it is the longest and assumed any shorter ones would work.
You should clean the carbon out with a drill about every 10 shots it can cause your problem. A short bushing [firing pin] could also. If you use shorter 209 primers you may have to shim to cut the blowback.

I don't understand why it wouldn't either. To just tell someone to use magnum primers is not a complete fix for ignition issues. In fact there are many reports of people still having hang-fires and ignition issues with magnum primers. It wasn't a primer issue, it was a breechplug issue.

No disagreement again. However many have had problems with standard 209 primers in T/C or other rifles and with the proper breech plug, or is that in complete denial too? Of course you can blame it on breech plugs that are not designed in the first place to shoot BH, but what say ye to those who've had problems with the proper plugs? Operator error, or other excuse?

If you have great luck with ANY primer, stick with it. However when its known that others have had problems and WITH the proper breech plug, why not recommend the magnum primers?

How about we just settle on this....... you guys recommend WIN209 primers that work in your rifles. I'll recommend magnum 209 primers that have worked in mine. Then we can set back and let the multitude of shooters decide? I'll answer to them why they had a HF or FTF with magnum primers, you answer to them why it happened with standard primers. :arms:

Idk, it very well could be a operator issue? Not cleaning out the carbon from the breechplug? I do know that the vast majority of reports that I have seen with ignition issues were with improper breechplugs minus the people that were using primers designed for pellets or other bp subs other than BH209. There is no denial that some have had issues with standard primers in proper breechplugs. Getting back to my previous post though, there is more than just simply a primer that goes into ignition.

So no, I am not just going to recommend using a standard primer and that is it. I would recommend using at least a standard primer up to a hotter magnum primer, do the proper maintenance on your breechplug, have the proper breechplug, and make sure you are getting a good seal with your primer. Which you have yourself mentioned already with illustrations. I don't think there is any argument there. My initial response was pointing out that in my experience when all other factors are squared away, standard primers work just fine even when it is really cold out. You responded to me saying that you don't disagree but if I want 100% ignition 100% of the time I should be using magnum primers. Essentially what you said was, "I don't disagree, but I disagree." LOL.

For the record. This is what Western recommends.

Quote:

"We have experienced the best performance, consistency and accuracy with CCI 209M and Federal 209A. NOTE: DO NOT use 209 muzzleloading primers such as Winchester Triple 7, Remington Kleenbore, Federal Fusion, or CCI In-Line MZL."

I've tested using precision equipment, bullet loading and bullet seating forces while using BH. Consistency and tight is the key. Keep the bullet seating force consistent and you'll have better groups. The tighter on the propellant, the better groups you'll end up with. I'm within +/- 5# and seating to 106# force.

Oh wow! That is just wonderful. How about some other possibles....there is no correct answer. Or how about.. all answers are correct. We can give out participation ribbons too.

Some wish to get it right. Then there are those that need to be right.

I'm sure you have that need to be right and it shows in your intelligent response. Someone disagrees and "Oh wow!" ??? If you can't carry on a discussion and do it without being a smart ask, stay out of the discussion please or, is your experience the gospel? "Oh wow!"... Great response Ron.
Read the posts, I didn't disagree even though you thought I called your baby ugly. The quote was posted from Western, that should have satisfied everyone. If you can get away with a certain primer, rather the primer is recommended or not, good for you. But remember, some shooters may take your posts as gospel, then end up still having problems. Good luck explaining it. I know...... its the breech plug and it needs a vent liner.....

No it doesn't.

My ULA does not have a vent liner and ignition with numerous powders is stellar. It also achieves a true head space on the rim of the primer and is about as sealed as one can get.

It also goes bang every time with a Harvester smooth black and a .451 bullet even with smokeless powder. :p

I attribute this to the breach plug design. The flash hole never seems to grow either. The same number of loads would have worn out at least 3-4 Savage vent liners in my Savages.

That long flash hole in the ULA, sure seems to work good.

It took awhile, but finally found photos of a CVA breech plug that will reliably ignite Blackhorn.











The plug on the left is the OEM CVA plug, which is unreliable igniting Blackhorn. The middle plug will reliably ignite Blackhorn 100% of the time using any shotgun primer in -15 degree temperatures or warmer; every time, all the time, any time; it fits CVA rifles. The plug on the right is the OEM Omega/Encore plug, which reliably ignites Blackhorn every time, all the time, any time, using any shotgun primer.











Note, none of these plugs has a vent liner.

Just in case anyone is interested in some specifics, the middle plug has a 0.028" flash hole, and a 5/32" flame channel; works perfectly in my old Accura, and has been tested a jillion times using W209, and STS primers. Many a night when the forcast was for sub-zero temperatures i loaded the rifle, and put it in the truck, so i could see how it worked in the morning. The old rifle never failed to fire right now, right away, using the W209, and the STS primer, no matter how cold the night, or morning.

The vent liner is not necessary for igniting Blackhorn. However, when using the highly erosive shotgun primers, the vent liner has the advantage of allowing the flash hole to be replaced quite economically

My ULA plug is actually quite short. Far shorter than the Savage breach plug. The tolerances are quite tight and it limits my primer selection to CCIs. I may buy another plug if it can be altered to except a Win209. It would need to go back to Melvin since each plug is "fitted" to each rifle.....or so ive been told.

It is certainly possible i don't remember correctly, perhaps probable. What i recall you writing previously, is the ULA plug doesn't have much of a flame channel, i.e. the flash hole virtually runs from the primer seat, to the end of the plug. If so, the flash hole would be far longer than the flash hole in any plug i have ever seen.