I'm new and need advice loading...
 

I recently purchased a Traditions Pursuit UL with true glow sights (colorado) and went to the range after plenty of reading as I have never shot a muzzleloading rifle.
I used:
338gr Powerbelt Platinum with 90 grains 777 (weighed on my reloading scale)and remington primers…

at 50 yards i had a 3 shot group high and left 4"-5" and the group with open sights was 3"
at 100 yards a different story but i could barely see a point to aim at but still grouped high and left.

I'v also purchased Hornady HPB 350's and also Blackhorn powder as well to test...

I've searched my arse off and cant find anything?

my reason for posting is each time i shot i would run a dry patch down the barrel 2x then shoot again… but while reloading i never had the rod fall in the same place…. i've read ( and makes sense) that it should always be in the same place using same charges and loads…. in order to be most consistent with pressures? what is my issue? i tried to get close but never could… and accuracy seemed okay at 50 yards for my first outing…

i live in CO where scopes sabots and pellets are not legal for hunting elk…
I'm an avid bow hunter with 10 Bull harvests out of 12 years hunting with a bow… thought i would try something new…

Put a Witness mark on your ramrod next time. Also when you swab.. because your shooting 777 use some windex on the patch. Do a couple wet ones, then a couple dry ones. I think you will see they all come back to the witness mark then.

But be careful of ramrod pressure each and every time. Make sure you try to seat them the same.

Two things. 90gr by weight is a heavy charge. Try around 100gr by volume. I'm not sure what weight that would be, because I just use a volume to measure the powder.

The second thing is T7 will leave a crud ring about where the bullet is loaded. The more powder you use the worse it gets. I'm not sure you're getting it all out with just a dry patch. Try licking a patch, and running that down first. Followed by a dry patch. If you don't want to lick a patch use Windex. No need to soak it. Just one spray will work.

If you decide to lick the patch. Make sure it's a clean patch. :p

What primers are you using?

thanks guys... i didnt realize the charge was by volume and not weight... good thing i didnt blow up the gun... it showed up as 100 on my blackhorn measureing tubes... and remington primers...

i did use a witness mark the first load... 3rd load and 5th load out of 6 shots.... only once did i get it to match on the 3rd?

i will try the windex deal for sure... anything i need to do differently with Blackhorn?

any thought in seeing my white target at 100yds? it was tough to see aspecific aim point???

The Traditions should shoot BH 209 ok, but you need a hot primer. Which ones are you using?

btw When you use BH 209 don't swab at all between shots. Just clean it at home after your shooting is done. You'll also need to use solvents to clean it the same as you use for CF guns. Black powder solvents, Windex etc won't work. Hoppe's is a good one to use.

Remington primers... I originally was going to use BH209 but cabelas only had 777 in stock and i really wanted to shoot the new gun... thanks for the help...

Ok, those are full strength shotgun primers? I ask, because Remington also makes a muzzleloader primer called Kleanbore. Those won't work with BH 209.

I will have to check... got them in the muzzleloading dept so i can assume they are likely the Kleanbores??? any recommendations?
also will my Hoppes #9 solvent be sufficient to clean Blackhorne?

As long as it's regular Hoppe's. They also make a Hoppe's 9 for black powder. Don't use that one for BH 209.

As for primers. Any 209 primers made for shotguns should work. Get the CCI mag if you can. Otherwise Federal, Winchester, Remington etc should work.

You also want to keep the flame channel clean with any powder, but especially with BH 209. It needs a hot flame to fire. The best way the keep the flame channel clean is to use a drill the size of the flame channel. You don't want to take any metal off when you clean it. Just twist the drill by hand to scrape off the fouling. This is really important to do. I like to do it every 5-6 shots. It only takes a few seconds to do it.

shot the 338 gr powerbelts again with 80 and 90 grains of blackhorn with winchester primers... no cleaning between shots ... 6 shots total...
much better loading as far as witness mark.... it never came back to witness mark from first shot.. but came back to same point each shot after the 2nd...

1 inch group at 50 a little left and 1" high from dead center
and 4 inch group at 100 about 10" high and left....

i couldnt get the hornady fpb in 350grns into my barrell at all.... damaged the copper jacket trying to get it started?????????

Great advice on here so far. I switched from 777 to BH209 and did not look back. Been using the FED 209A primers. Only thing I will add is to get the proper drill bit and clean out the breechplug as part of your cleaning routine. I also blow mine out with an air compressor.

I also weigh my charges. From the Blackhorn website: 100 units by volume x 0.7 = 70 grains by weight. 110 volume charge x 0.7 = 77 grains by weight.

Make everything as consistent as possible. Just like in reloading, consistency equals accuracy.

Last requirement is to post pictures and stories of your success & failures.

I have a little trick in loading the FPB bullets. They run big, so you need a loose bore for them to load easy.

So, what I do is use the barrel to size them. With the breech plug removed start the bullets down the barrel upside down. (point down) Just push them all the way down, and out the barrel. You've now sized them, but also etched the rifling in them. When you now load them to shoot start them lightly, and turn the bullet slowly until you feel the etching on the bullet line up with the rifling in the barrel. You'll feel the bullet drop it slightly. it's very subtle, so don't try to force it. Once you feel it start just push them down. Works for me.

Just size up the whole pack of bullets at once, and your done with that process. They're ready to shoot when you need them.

When I load the FPB's the trick I use is, set the bullet over the muzzle. Be sure to center it as best you can. With your short starter, give that thing a very sharp rap with the heel of your hand. You want to drive that into the bore. Once in, it will move down the bore in a solid manner but will move down the bore.

I almost broke my hand doing that once. It has it's limits. It's a .503 bullet, and pretty hard. It won't compress like a sabot, or lead bullet. Trying to pound it in a .500 bore will be painful.

Not to mention probably deforming the bullet in the process.

yup mine has deformed from just constant pressure not whacking.... cant be that hard of a bullet then? they never came close to even sitting in the barrel...

Muley
so if i size them do i send them down the barrel from the muzzzle or from the breech?
seems to me starting from breech in the direction of travel as you would shoot it would allow rifling to be the most consistant? but again being a bow hunter im new to this???
and will i need to clean between shots with the FPBs and BH209?

Kathwack
and yeah im more interested in weighing out my charges... after experimenting with filling my charge tubes with a weighed out charge they all read differently every time.. must be how the powder settles when dropped in the tube?

im out of powerbelts now and only have the fpbs... until i can get down the mountain to restock on some bullets...
thanks guys... will shoot again friday? weather depending or wednesday?

I send them down from the muzzle.

If you're hitting 1" high at 50, you should not be 10" high at 100. I suspect this has more to do with your eyesight than the gun. The "six o'clock" aiming method may help. You can find plenty of info on it if you google it.

I shoot FPBs, and sizing is the trick to loading them. Once sized, mine insert into the muzzle with fingers only and slide down the bore easily. Once I contact the charge (Pyrodex RS) I lean on it pretty good to fill the hollow base and compress the charge. Pyrodex likes to be compressed. I don't know if that applies to BH209, but others may.

Also, sounds like you need to move your rear sight to the right a bit.

So true. Bullet should be hitting dang close to zero at 100.. maybe 1/2" high, if 1" high at 50.

tried sizing and well yeah ... i cant get the fpb's into my barrel any way i try??? damn near put all my weight into it..... tried a few hard wacks as well? ???? how hard should this be?

the skirt measures .509 to .510 the powerbelts measure .508 but they are soft as you all know.. going to range with some more powerbelts i picked up the other day... just to work on shooting 100 yrds only since i am having a tough time seeing/aligning open sight on the bottom of my 6" black circle (6 o'clock style)

also shooting the 22-250 after a solid few hours of cleaning the copper fouling out of her.... it will be nice to see the clover leaf at 100....

If you can't wack the FPB nose first, i'd give up on those. Your bore is too small for them.

shooting the 348 grn powerbelt at 100yds with 100grn of bh209 wasnt great... too many idiots at the range..... only took 3 shots.... moved rear site.. now shooting straight but not grouping well.. gonna drop down to 80 grains and see... any shooting tips would be great... the tru glow sites are pretty bright.. makes it hard to focus my tired eyes...

Less powder may help, and it's all you need with that bullet.

Can you normally group good at 100yds with open sights?

I'm really surprised you can't push them through the bore nose first. Your bore must be pretty tight.

Also, sounds like you are having issues seeing your sights and aligning them well. A peep style sight may help, and a scope would certainly help if you can use one.

thanks for all the advice guys...

unfortunately scopes are illegal in CO... I just ordered a rear peep with hopes it will help with seeing sigths better? we will see should be here next week? thought about a scope just to build the load up and maybe use it during rifle season for a cow? but my schedule is getting pretty tight for the 5 day 4th rifle tag?????

i can try again.. maybe lubing the barrel? when people run a lube patch down the barrel what sort of lube are they using ... i've bee loading powerbelts in a dry barrel with no problems... wont get to shoot until next week weather depending...

A peep will definitely help, in comparison to regular iron sights.

If the FPBs truly won't go through nose first with just a LITTLE pressure, forget about them and try something else.

Nobody should be using lube on a load unless they're shooting a round ball.

Or a lead conical................

That is kinda what I was thinking. Personally, I'd rather shoot a good lead conical than a PB. (I assume you can shoot lead conicals out there?)

Hope you get her shooting good, whatever direction you go.

Trying to not confuse him since a Powerbelt is a lead conical, and he mentioned trying them.

While it's not "lube" as such, Harvester Muzzleloading recommends you run an oil patch down the bore before loading every sabot for best accuracy.

Just shoot BH 209. I swear the more you shoot without swabbing the easier it is to load. It's like the powder fouling is a lube.