A 65 Grain Hunting Load?
04-07-2014, 05:51 PM
#31
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Kerrville, Tx. USA
Posts: 2,722
"
As for the .45-70 ...
Apples to oranges when compared to a 200 gr. .40 caliber bullet at 1,500 fps. They are not comparable.
The .45-70 employs a much heavier bullet, between 300 and 600 grs. It doesn't depend upon hydraulics to expand the bullet, the soft lead bullets of the 1800s tended to widen or flatten when encountering heavy muscle or bone.
The .45-70 is a magnificent cartridge for any North American game within 200 yards (in the hands of a true marksman, but most of today's hunters aren't nearly that proficient).
The .45-70 is a far better choice than its poor imitator, the .444 Marlin, which is limited by its slow rifling and bullet weights not exceeding 265 grs or so.
The .444 was introduced a few years after the .44 Magnum, at a time when velocity impressed shooters and energy was secondary. Bullet weight was tertiary, at best. This faulty view keeps the .444 going even today, though anything it can do the .45-70 can do, and do it much better.
As for the .45-70 ...
Apples to oranges when compared to a 200 gr. .40 caliber bullet at 1,500 fps. They are not comparable.
The .45-70 employs a much heavier bullet, between 300 and 600 grs. It doesn't depend upon hydraulics to expand the bullet, the soft lead bullets of the 1800s tended to widen or flatten when encountering heavy muscle or bone.
The .45-70 is a magnificent cartridge for any North American game within 200 yards (in the hands of a true marksman, but most of today's hunters aren't nearly that proficient).
The .45-70 is a far better choice than its poor imitator, the .444 Marlin, which is limited by its slow rifling and bullet weights not exceeding 265 grs or so.
The .444 was introduced a few years after the .44 Magnum, at a time when velocity impressed shooters and energy was secondary. Bullet weight was tertiary, at best. This faulty view keeps the .444 going even today, though anything it can do the .45-70 can do, and do it much better.
04-08-2014, 04:55 PM
#33
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 21,193
I once read a book about testing your hunting load with the "board test." This was explained as .... at what distance your willing to shoot at the game animal, set up two 1" boards. Now, the hunting load you want to use, shoot the center of the two boards and see if it penetrates them. It would be interesting to see if this 65 grain load and then bullet Semisane was discussing would penetrate those boards.
Another thing I read in the same book was.. this author feels over penetration is as dangerous as under penetration. He explained if your load hits the deer and blows right through it, not hitting a bone, your in for a long tracking job. Where he feels a lighter load hits, and releases its pent up energy in the animal. And still if it hits bone going in and breaks through it (the board test) that the bullet expands and while it might not pass through, does extreme damage inside.
His explanation is interesting to say the least. I was always under the impression I wanted a pass through as two holes bleed better then one. And I am still going to put a hole in a vital organ. But can you understand his argument of light loads? What are your views? I am especially interested in hearing from Semisane on this as he has used that bullet to take a deer.
Another thing I read in the same book was.. this author feels over penetration is as dangerous as under penetration. He explained if your load hits the deer and blows right through it, not hitting a bone, your in for a long tracking job. Where he feels a lighter load hits, and releases its pent up energy in the animal. And still if it hits bone going in and breaks through it (the board test) that the bullet expands and while it might not pass through, does extreme damage inside.
His explanation is interesting to say the least. I was always under the impression I wanted a pass through as two holes bleed better then one. And I am still going to put a hole in a vital organ. But can you understand his argument of light loads? What are your views? I am especially interested in hearing from Semisane on this as he has used that bullet to take a deer.
04-08-2014, 05:29 PM
#34
Boone & Crockett
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: River Ridge, LA (Suburb of New Orleans)
Posts: 10,917
Yeah Cayugad, it's the age old debate. Is it better for a bullet to expend all of its energy inside the animal, or have a guaranteed pass through with the energy the bullet is still carrying after it passes through being wasted? Both sides have what seem to be valid points.
I tend to favor a pass through with two holes for a blood trail. I'm not much concerned with what the energy numbers are if a load is giving me pass through on broadside heart/lung shots (which, other than neck shots, are pretty much the only shots I take).
Consider this. At 100 yards the .40/200 grain XTP over 65 grains has just about the same energy as a .575 ball over 85 grains (my standard hunting load) out of my TC GM barreled .58 Hawken. That says enough for me. I have absoultely no qualms shooting a deer at 100 yards with the .58 Hawken.
I tend to favor a pass through with two holes for a blood trail. I'm not much concerned with what the energy numbers are if a load is giving me pass through on broadside heart/lung shots (which, other than neck shots, are pretty much the only shots I take).
Consider this. At 100 yards the .40/200 grain XTP over 65 grains has just about the same energy as a .575 ball over 85 grains (my standard hunting load) out of my TC GM barreled .58 Hawken. That says enough for me. I have absoultely no qualms shooting a deer at 100 yards with the .58 Hawken.
04-08-2014, 05:58 PM
#36
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 21,193
I can't remember what they said, but I would think pine is fine. Are you going to try it? I did a test with 65 grains and a 460 grain No Excuses Conical bullet. And that penetrated 8 inches of popular wood.
04-08-2014, 06:27 PM
#37
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 973
It could be a interesting test. I've got plenty of miscellaneous pine around. Come to think of it there are multiple empty cable wheels at the range darn close to 2" thick and made of pine too. Next time out I'll send a couple of the 65/200 combo at one from 100 for kicks. I'm betting they'll get through at that range.
04-08-2014, 07:20 PM
#38
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 21,193
Getting back to the question of high power VS moderate power.. when I first started shooting, most of the traditional style .50 caliber rifles were rated at 100 grains max. My friend used to shoot 70 grains of Pyrodex RS in his .58 caliber CVA Mountian Rifle, and never had a problem taking a deer. Although he used to get complete pass through with that.
My first rifle was a .54 caliber Renegade (I still own) and I found that it liked 90 grains. I can remember him laughing at me for shooting such a magnum load. And then when Knight came out with their inline rifles and rated them at 110 grains of powder.. we laughed thinking anyone would ever have to shoot such a powerful load. Now 150 is the max in most rifles and some of the custom I heard can shoot 200 grains of powder. That book I was talking about, the person liked 50 grains of powder and a patched ball out of his flintlock. He thought that was the perfect deer load. Once I can walk around the yard, I am going to try that 50 grain load and see if it will penetrate 2 one inch boards.
My first rifle was a .54 caliber Renegade (I still own) and I found that it liked 90 grains. I can remember him laughing at me for shooting such a magnum load. And then when Knight came out with their inline rifles and rated them at 110 grains of powder.. we laughed thinking anyone would ever have to shoot such a powerful load. Now 150 is the max in most rifles and some of the custom I heard can shoot 200 grains of powder. That book I was talking about, the person liked 50 grains of powder and a patched ball out of his flintlock. He thought that was the perfect deer load. Once I can walk around the yard, I am going to try that 50 grain load and see if it will penetrate 2 one inch boards.
04-09-2014, 08:00 AM
#39
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,425
I tested my first .45 into 2x4s at 75 yards, the ball went all the way through with 75grs FFF Goex...This was through the 2 inch (OK 1 1/2 inch) thick side... 
I put the same load through several shoulder blades, penetrating both as well as the spine, finding the ball under the hide on the opposite side...
I put the same load through several shoulder blades, penetrating both as well as the spine, finding the ball under the hide on the opposite side...
