lemoyne

Txhunter is correct, when you use a smaller load sometimes you slow the exit of the bullet down to where the recoil has time to raise the barrel before it exits the barrel.

specialist1

Thats my guess, thats why I want to slow it down some...

ronlaughlin

The first photo shows a 240g XTP mag bullet before, and after it was fired into jugs filled with water. The bullet speed was about 900 fps. The second photo shows the same bullet, after it was shot into water jugs at a speed around 1800 fps.












Note how the bullet that impacted at the higher speed expanded more.

specialist1

Interesting, but how do jugs of water compare with pure flesh?

I shot a 6 point year before last, 250 grain shockwave, (3) 50 grain triple seven pellets, deer at 50 yards broadside. That deer kicked like a mule. left good blood, and never crashed. I was holding for heart shot, gun zeroed at 100 yards. Never found that deer, I hunt a high pressure area, and alot of times after a shot, hunters will head towards the shot looking for an escapee. We saw twice where that deer had bedded after giving it half an hour before looking, first spot took us 45 minutes to get to. I just think that load is too hot for under 100 yards.

Last year I shot a doe with the same load and hit her in the shoulder, she went 60 yards and piled up. Bullet expansion was as good as your bottom picture, because I hit something solid...

I would think at slower speed the bullet might not expand but tumble and spin once it hit and do more damage on internal organs...

edwardCVAmason

I don't think they do but its one of the best ways we have to test bullets short of buying ballistic gelatin which is expensive and/or purchasing goats for testing which can be a touchy subject and perhaps even illegle in some states.

oldsmellhound

Usually higher speed = more expansion, but bullets can do strange things. I've heard about the "penciling through" phenomenon at high velocities quite a bit, especially with SST/Shockwaves. This may happen occasionally, but I have a different theory as to what occurs often.

This is based on using SST/Shockwaves a fair bit on deer for the past 5 years or so, and getting a feel for how this bullet performs. I believe that the bullet (especially the 250 grain version) is not optimally designed for very high speed impacts - i.e. using 3 pellet loads and shooting a deer at 40 yards. I theorize that what often happens is that the nose of the bullet fragments within the first couple inches of tissue and only part of the bullet (usually the base) penetrates all the way through the deer, leaving a small exit hole. Now if the shot placement is good, the deer is still dead, but there may be little to no blood trail. Deer can run a decent distance before they realize they are dead, and with no blood trail it can be hard to find them.

I have seen many reports of this - when the hunter slows his muzzle velocity down to 1800 - 1900 fps or so, the problems disappear. I've used the Shockwaves at around 1900 fps and they perform great. Now the 200 grain and the big 300 grain Shockwaves seem to have less of a problem with this - they can be pushed faster without as many problems. Though I did once have this problem with the 200 Shockwave- that got me started thinking. - Point blank range and 2100 fps - the bullet did exactly as I described - front half fragged badly and only a small piece fully penetrated - leaving a small exit hole. Deer was DOA, though.

I've also heard that the 250 grain Bonded SW's work well at high velocities, but I haven't used them.

I've also found that SW's (especially the 200 grainers that I normally use now) penetrate really well - that's one of the reasons I use them. I used to use XTP's, and I found that they expand really well but I didn't always get a pass-thru. This was also somewhat velocity-dependent - high velocities produced a lot of expansion, but the bullet rarely exited. Lower velocities (1800 fps or so MV) and I would get a pass-thru.

specialist1

So then I am on the right path with this bullet, less powder.... Or switch to a 200 grain and not change the powder load....

edwardCVAmason

1. First and formost lets talk about what these bullets are. They are handgun Bullets. Specifically the XTP 240 Grain is designed to be shot in a 44 Magnum HANDGUN at speeds of 1300 FPS to 1500 FPS depdending on what barrel length you are shooting from and who's data you want to read or belive.

I pulled Ballistics 101 just for whistles and kicks

http://www.ballistics101.com/44_magnum.php

Now if you bump that same bullet up to RIFLE speeds your probably looking at adding about 300 FPS to that load.

So with that said 1800 FPS would be a Ideal speed for that bullet. What you have to remember about FPS is alot depends on the construction of the bullet. A lot depends on the intended target and a lot depends on the general ranges you plan to hunt.



Now days I thinking in a different direction. I have had great success with the handgun bullets out of my MZ's with very few failures. So I am not knocking them by any means. But I think they can be very unforgiving at the same time.

I have switched to the 300 Gr .458 Rifle bullets and pushing them at speeds they were intended to be pushed which is up around 1800-1900 FPS. Almost Identical to the 45-70. I feel like the rifle bullets are more forgiving and are less likley to fail due to the nature and construction of the bullet. Of the deer I have killed with them the results have been dramatic. Insides have been turned to liquid or almost a jelly like substance. Something I have not seen with the pistol bullets. Generally pistol bullets rip through and shred and do severe enough damage or "hydrostatic shock"(hate using that term) but these rifle bullets seem to engage the insides differently. Lots less meat damage than with pistol bullets.

ronlaughlin

Well..............right or wrong, it has been my understanding that an animal' body is 60-75 % water. Even bone is half water.

Here is photo of the 45 caliber 300g Deep Curl. Ranges of water jug capture are shown. The bullet was shot by the same rifle, same load, at the different ranges. Note, the slower the bullet the less the expansion.









Typically what this bullet does on deer is makes about a 1" entrance hole in the rib cage. Then what ever it hits in side the chest becomes a mess. The chest cavity fills with blood. The bullet exits the rib cage with about a 2" hole. Performance on deer has been quite consistent. If the bullet passes near the back bone, the deer gets paralyzed by 'shock' or something, because they fall down right there and die, even if the back bone isn't hit. Some deer run a ways, when hit by this bullet; they all die.

Myself, i have killed 3 deer, and a pronghorn with the 200g SST. The Results were good, and i would use this bullet again, even though the Deep Curl shows more damage when one examines the animal.

Five deer have been killed by me using the 300g SST. Examining the tissue damage led me to discontinue their use. In my opinion, the Deep Curl is a far better hunting bullet.

Both the 300g, and the 270g Deep Curl have put many a deer into our freezer. The powder charge used has been 90g sometimes, and 105g sometimes, and 110g sometimes. All charges of powder produced dead deer.

Gm54-120

Considering Ron shot the 240gr XTP MAG in a 45ACP i would assume they were .451-.452 bullets and not 44 mag bullets. I may have missed something though.

It appears Hornady uses the 240gr .452 XTP MAGs in the 454Casull at a advertised 1900fps MV. Ive seen a few guys using them in the 460S&W too but i don't think its a factory load. IIRC Hornady does list it in the reloading manual at 2000fps for the 460S&W. A call to Hornady got the response of upto 2200fps for the 240gr XTP MAG. So its a pretty tough little bullet.
http://www.hornady.com/store/454-Casull-240-gr-XTP-Mag/

The 44mag 240gr is not even listed as a MAG but the higher sectional density might help it perform like one.
http://www.hornady.com/store/44-Cal-.430-240-gr-HP-XTP/

Its known to be a tough bullet and even many Savage smokeless shooters avoid the 240gr MAGs because the bullet is so tough. Not so much due to lack of expansion but due to better accuracy with the 250gr XTP non MAG. At longer ranges though they might be a crap shoot on expansion depending on bullet placement. Not all SML shooters are pushing the FPS limits even though 2400fps is not hard to achieve with a 250gr class bullet. One of my pet loads is over 2400fps with a 275gr bullet and its not even max. Its simply the limit of what i can endure and the accuracy is more than adequate for 200 yard shots.

This isn't as big of a problem for the "average" handgun shooter who will most likely try to take a closer shot. Quite a few ML shooters don't realize this and complain about lack of expansion. Especially those using low end sub loads in their ML and taking shots over 100 yards. The poor .160 BC strips off a lot of fps even at 100 yard and a low end sub load is probably slower than a common 454Casull 240gr load.