Chpt #4-Sabotless Shooting- ULite in the Rock Pit
 

Shooting withdrawals had set in really bad, the temp has dropped to the low 50's and it has finally rained (dropping the fire hazard), and it was drizzle-ling this morning here in Moscow - I decide to hope for the best and head to the rock pit...

The mission started out to be some sabot testing with a quality rifle instead of the Project Rifle. I wanted to get velocities + test the ability of the MMP - Sub Bridge to replace either the wad or the shot card...



I talked to Del Ramsey about this project in a conversation on the phone. I suggested to him that I was shooting flat based 50 cal bullets sabotless in my 50 cal rifle and instead of using a shot card or a wad - why not sub in a "Sub Base". The sub base is made with the HPH Polymer formula and should easily with stand shooting these bullets. Del could not think of a reason that it might be a safety issue although he was not willing to say "it will work". At the end of the conversation we were both wondering???

Today, I think I found out... I got 15 shots in before I was forced to abandoned the Rock Pit because of rain.

I was shooting:

Knight Mountaineer Ultra Lite - 50 cal.
Redfield 3x9x42 Accu Ranger Hunter
Barnes - 50x275 XPB or Expanders
Barnes - 50x325 XPB's
120 gr T7-2f - by volume
MMP Sub Base

Because of the rush of the trip - I really wanted to get some shots down range so I did not set any paper or even the chrono. What I did was setup my tailgate work bench, my portable shooting bench - then walked 5 clay pigeons 100 yards down range to the rock wall. I placed them on various ledges and came back to commence shooting.

Both the 275's and the 375'w need to be knurled to increase their diameter enough to fir some what snugly down the barrel.
Bullets out of the box...



50-275's after Knurling


50-325's after knurling



First up for testing were the 325's - I loaded up and started working the pigeons. Pick off all five with out a problem... Then the problems started Del wanted to see what the sub-bases looked like after shooting and really so did I. I walked very slowly down range to look for the five bases - then after spend 5-10 minutes looking - I began looking for just one - any one! did not find any found all kinds of old sabots that that have been shot but no sub bases!!!

OK- what the heck I will shoot another five and increase the odds of finding at least one.... What another 5 birds down to the wall, again watching for bases along the way. NONE!

I should have mentioned that this rifle is sighted in right at 2-3/4" high at 100 and shooting the 325's I was holding the cross hair right at the bottom of the bird and just as planned every bird broke. With the 275's I used the same hold... and to may amazement I missed the first shot... not thinking a lot about it - I loaded up the second and touched it off - after the smoke cleared the bird was still there - which really bothered me... Del had suggested that the sub-base might effect the flight of the bullet - so I was beginning to believe it. After thinking about it for a bit I wondered if I was just shooting a little bit higher with the lighter 275's.

I loaded up the next shot and instead of holding the Xhair at the bottom of the bird I place the first line above the cross hair right in the middle of the bird... You can see the reticule in this pic.



BINGO!!! Problem solved - POI was high... this change brought the bullet to dead center on the bird... five shots later - birds gone. Began the hunt for "sub bases" - again no luck...
I could see the rain clouds coming but decided to push my luck one more time... ran five more birds out and started loading the 275's again and again the same results... broken birds..

I believe the sub bases worked great and I believe I can shoot a minute of a bird all day at 100 with sabotless bullets...
Couple of pictures of the trip...





Very Good Outing!

That is some fine shooting. Looks like the sub bases work really well.

That looks really good. They shoot better than I would have guessed. I might have to try sabotless sometime .

I really think the sub-bases worked very well - I would like to think they were even better than the shot card or the wad. I really want to/need to find some of spent ones to see what they look like...

For me it is just another experiment - but it is working better than I thought. Lehigh Dave makes a 500x325 DOA - I really want to try some of those also.. Could make a WOW! elk bullet...

Are things starting to even up over there?

mike

August 17th I can get started catching up . Been a long tough summer but its coming to a close .

Good enough... at least there is a light... My/our summer has been busier than heck, between the grandkids and my odd job work schedule. It really has made it tough to get any shooting in...

Things ought to slow down a bunch in the next couple of weeks, the students start arriving back for the fall college session and then finally hunting season get here.

Saw your speed goat pics when does that begin for you? Whitetail are about as close to that as I get up and over here..

I really want to get some of those 50-325's that Lehigh makes, I am betting they might fit perfectly...

later.

Good shooting and good report sabot I would like to see chono on the bullets your shooting with sub base and with the cards and the wads and on paper to see the difference.and I think the bullet your talking about is 350gr bullet from lehigh.

Ive cut the petals off of sabots before but i never tried a regular MMP sub base with sabotless. I cant see how a SB with a smaller metplat than full bore might not damage a copper or brass bullet but it might do something to a conventional bullet. It probably would not do much more than a off center impression on the base of the bullet.

It would have been nice to find one. Then you might be able to guess how it is reacting as a wad. I would imagine they flatten out a little bit.

Read more: http://dougsmessageboards.proboards....#ixzz2ayNSl6ub

Sabotless can be more challenging with the 50cal but a 45cal with a .451ish bore and a 1-22twist or faster is a bit easier. Bullet and sizing die selection makes all the difference.

These are the Lehigh/Bloodlines I think I am talking about



http://www.knightrifles.com/Bloodline-.54-325-20-pack/

I can tell you that the new Monoflex bullets are guilding metal. 95% copper and 5% zinc. The few that have tried to get them to shoot sabotless in 45cals with only knurling are not having much success.

The Lehigh sabotless bullets had REAL type bands. I have an idea that might raise some small bands. The actual bullet to land fit would need to be super close because the bands would be really small. It also might require you anneal the bullets......




A high quality tubing cutter and an Allen wrench in the HP to turn it????

Scott, right now I am assuming they were shooting accurately because of the success shooting the clay targets. And I am assuming I had the velocity that I wanted.

What does puzzle me somewhat is the 50-325 are slightly smaller in diameter than are the 275's either the XPB's or the Expanders, because of this even with the knurling they really fit loose. I was not concerned that they would come off the load unless I jarred the rifle pretty heavily.

Anyway I was really surprised that it appears that I did get stabilization with the bullets actually both of them.

I would say that at this point - I would hunt with them but more testing would be required. The other problem is I really do prefer the conventional sabot/bullet. The reason I even got this bug was that Idaho requires a full bore lead conical for ML season. I am hoping at some in the near future that Idaho will loosen a bit and continue to require full bore, but because of the impending 'lead ban' controversy they might allow bullets like the Thor or FPB. I think that might happen before they allow a sabot/projectile again.

I am hoping and thinking the Lehigh might be just slightly larger than the Barnes and not require knurling at all...

I was mainly referring to the brass Lehigh 50-325s. Those are probably going to be a big challenge sabotless. Pure copper is more forgiving than alloys or brass and bullets like the Parkers BEs are about as easy as they get. The pure lead core and thin jacket responds well in this application. I think Nosler still uses pure lead cores in their sporting handgun line. I have some 250gr HPs i will be trying next.

I also prefer sabots in my ULA 50cal. It shoots well with reasonable loading effort. My Elite 45 loads ok too with sabots and shoots fine.

The Pacnor 45 and DISC 45 though will likely move to sabotless and i will buy a adjustable die to keep it as convenient as possible.

Gm54-120

Just got off the phone with Lehigh Dave, he is going to send me a handful of the 325's and handful of the 350's made for pistols...

a1smokepole was a head of me on that one - the non-ml 350's have got my interest...



I want to see how they fit in the Knight bores...

Now those might just work if you can load them and get some engraving on the bands.

I am really hoping!

This was the bullet I was talking about and being .950 in length and velocity of 1200 to 2600 fps my work if they fit wright.