Clean bore accuracy question.
11-07-2012, 08:15 PM
#1
Spike
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 50
Clean bore accuracy question.
Hey everyone, i'm new to the muzzle loading world and was doing some reading here and saw a thread that talked about how the first shot of a muzzle loader out of a clean bore is often less accurate than consecutive shots. Is this true? Can someone explain this to me? I just cant seem to make sense of it.
Thanks.
Thanks.
11-07-2012, 08:23 PM
#2
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 21,193
Think of it this way...
your first shot comes out of a CLEAN fouling free barrel. All the consecutive shots, unless you completely break the rifle down and clean it, come out of a fouled bore. Instead of clean there might be a slight hint of fouling on the inside walls of the barrel. You will notice it sometimes in just the degree the bullets take to be seated on the powder charge. Any time you change the characteristics of a load, there is a CHANCE that the bullets will have a different POI. Now it might not be any or much. But some rifles are very sensitive, depending on the powder, the amount of powder, the projectile, and the way they are shot.
your first shot comes out of a CLEAN fouling free barrel. All the consecutive shots, unless you completely break the rifle down and clean it, come out of a fouled bore. Instead of clean there might be a slight hint of fouling on the inside walls of the barrel. You will notice it sometimes in just the degree the bullets take to be seated on the powder charge. Any time you change the characteristics of a load, there is a CHANCE that the bullets will have a different POI. Now it might not be any or much. But some rifles are very sensitive, depending on the powder, the amount of powder, the projectile, and the way they are shot.
11-07-2012, 09:45 PM
#3
Fork Horn
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location:
Posts: 418
Cayugad is absolutely correct and the thread that you read was probably mine. I had one heck of a time with my CVA Optima Pro this year in that my first shot from a clean barrel had a different POI than the following shots. The shots that came from a fouled barrel made for a great group but that first shot was a flyer.
The solution (for me) was to foul the barrel before loading the gun. I do this by pouring about 20gr of Blackhorn 209 into the clean barrel and shooting it. ( no projectile ). This caused the barrel to become fouled and any subsequent shots to be dead on. I hope that this has helped answer your question but Cayugad said it much better.
The solution (for me) was to foul the barrel before loading the gun. I do this by pouring about 20gr of Blackhorn 209 into the clean barrel and shooting it. ( no projectile ). This caused the barrel to become fouled and any subsequent shots to be dead on. I hope that this has helped answer your question but Cayugad said it much better.
11-07-2012, 09:53 PM
#4
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Northern Chautauqua Co. N.Y.
Posts: 2,976
Cayugad explained this good but I'll add this....
Think of this, your at the range sighting in your MLer, after your first shot your no longer shooting on a clean barrel, it's fouled, even though you may swab inbetween shots it's still a fouled barrel.
Now your shooting and hitting bullseyes, your dead on and ready to hunt. Now you go home and clean your MLer and when it's time to hunt you load it and go hunting. Now you knew you were sighted in and hitting the bull with a fouled barrel yet you now have a clean loaded barrel. You take your first shot and your off the mark. Why because of what cayugad said above and because you shot on a "fouled sighted in barrel" and not a clean one wich you now have.
Now like cayugad said not all MLers have this effect, some MLers will be off on the first shot and some wont, it could be a little and hardly noticeable or it could be a couple of inches, theses are called "Flyers"
If you prefer to shoot on a Clean Barrel for your first shot you'll have to clean the barrel good after each and every shot, this way each shot at the target will be on a clean barrel and you'll know where your clean barrel shot will be on it's first shot while hunting, this is a pain, unless of course your MLer is'nt effected as much by shooting with a clean barrel and a fouled barrel.
So to be on the safe side or if your MLer does'nt like a clean barrel first shot, sight in and once you have your shots on the money on a fouled barrel, load it and wait untill you need to take that shot on game as you'll know this shot will be exactly where it was on the bull when you were at the range.
Now My Accura is'nt off that much on a fouled barrel as it is on a clean one so I could and have loaded it on a clean barrel and hunted and all was fine on the first shot. But I dont like them odds as Im real picky as to where my first shot is going to hit. So once Im sighted in or sight checked I leave the barrel fouled and load it for the hunt. This was I know Im 100% sure Im dead on with my next shot and confident when I take it, there's no hoping.
Also depending on how long you leave the barrel loaded on a fouled bore could matter also. Some barrels corrode from the powder residue in them from the fouled barrel after periods of time. So you and only you have to know your MLer and how long you can or can not leave it loaded with a fouled barrel.
I have a Stainless Steel barrel, I have found that a SS Barrel can take the fouling longer than a regular steel barrel. I have left mine loaded on a fouled barrel for a week and longer, then shot it and cleaned it with zero harmful effects, the barrel cleaned up spotless. But I also use Montana Extreme Bore Conditioner in my barrel, this could help some but Im guessing the SS barrel is the reason I can go so long. I've loaded a regular steel barrel on a fouled barrel and only left it for a day and it started to corrode, so like I said you have to determine from experience how long you can or can not leave it on a fouled barrel.
Having a fouled barrel first shot dead on Mler is hard for some to have for this reason, it's also a pain if each and every day you want to hunt with a fouled barrel if each and every time you want it, you have to go to the range or whereever, shoot it, load it and then go hunting, the repete the process each time you hunt. This is impossible for me as how in the heck can I go to the range and get the barrel fouled and then load it in the dark befor I go hunting each day. The other option for those who cant have it this way it to shoot on a clean barrel each hunt. You have to clean after each shot at the range so you know where your first shot will be on a clean barrel when it comes time to hunt.
In our State a MLer is considered Un Loaded as long as there's NO PRIMER in the Mler. So I can have a loaded MLer with a fouled barrel in my truck to and from hunting as long as there's no primer in it. This makes things easier to have a fouled barrel for extended periods of time for me.
Boy I hope Im making some sence here........
Also another trick I experienced with is, pop a couple of primers or caps through your MLer befor you load it if it's on a clean barrel yet sighted in for a fouled one. The primer/cap residue has enough fouling in it to make up for the fouling from the powder you use and will be pretty darn close to a fouled barrel shot, but again you have to try it and see how it works for you.
To sum this up sight in shoot, ect. Your dead on and have swabbed inbetween every shot or two and your ready, your barrels fouled and your on. Load it when you plan to hunt so you know your first shot will be where it was when you left the range or where ever. But know how long or how soon you have to clean your barrel after it's been fouled and you'll be good.
Or Clean the barrel after every shot as good as you can and be sighted in. So you know when you load on a clean barrel where your clean barreled first shot will go. I prefer the first option it's much easier, also if you take more than 1 shot while hunting there'll be no guessing where your 2nd or 3d shot will be as it'll be the same as it was when you were shooting at the range, no hoping, just dead on shots.
Hope this was'nt too cunfusing and Good Luck.
(BP)
Think of this, your at the range sighting in your MLer, after your first shot your no longer shooting on a clean barrel, it's fouled, even though you may swab inbetween shots it's still a fouled barrel.
Now your shooting and hitting bullseyes, your dead on and ready to hunt. Now you go home and clean your MLer and when it's time to hunt you load it and go hunting. Now you knew you were sighted in and hitting the bull with a fouled barrel yet you now have a clean loaded barrel. You take your first shot and your off the mark. Why because of what cayugad said above and because you shot on a "fouled sighted in barrel" and not a clean one wich you now have.
Now like cayugad said not all MLers have this effect, some MLers will be off on the first shot and some wont, it could be a little and hardly noticeable or it could be a couple of inches, theses are called "Flyers"
If you prefer to shoot on a Clean Barrel for your first shot you'll have to clean the barrel good after each and every shot, this way each shot at the target will be on a clean barrel and you'll know where your clean barrel shot will be on it's first shot while hunting, this is a pain, unless of course your MLer is'nt effected as much by shooting with a clean barrel and a fouled barrel.
So to be on the safe side or if your MLer does'nt like a clean barrel first shot, sight in and once you have your shots on the money on a fouled barrel, load it and wait untill you need to take that shot on game as you'll know this shot will be exactly where it was on the bull when you were at the range.
Now My Accura is'nt off that much on a fouled barrel as it is on a clean one so I could and have loaded it on a clean barrel and hunted and all was fine on the first shot. But I dont like them odds as Im real picky as to where my first shot is going to hit. So once Im sighted in or sight checked I leave the barrel fouled and load it for the hunt. This was I know Im 100% sure Im dead on with my next shot and confident when I take it, there's no hoping.
Also depending on how long you leave the barrel loaded on a fouled bore could matter also. Some barrels corrode from the powder residue in them from the fouled barrel after periods of time. So you and only you have to know your MLer and how long you can or can not leave it loaded with a fouled barrel.
I have a Stainless Steel barrel, I have found that a SS Barrel can take the fouling longer than a regular steel barrel. I have left mine loaded on a fouled barrel for a week and longer, then shot it and cleaned it with zero harmful effects, the barrel cleaned up spotless. But I also use Montana Extreme Bore Conditioner in my barrel, this could help some but Im guessing the SS barrel is the reason I can go so long. I've loaded a regular steel barrel on a fouled barrel and only left it for a day and it started to corrode, so like I said you have to determine from experience how long you can or can not leave it on a fouled barrel.
Having a fouled barrel first shot dead on Mler is hard for some to have for this reason, it's also a pain if each and every day you want to hunt with a fouled barrel if each and every time you want it, you have to go to the range or whereever, shoot it, load it and then go hunting, the repete the process each time you hunt. This is impossible for me as how in the heck can I go to the range and get the barrel fouled and then load it in the dark befor I go hunting each day. The other option for those who cant have it this way it to shoot on a clean barrel each hunt. You have to clean after each shot at the range so you know where your first shot will be on a clean barrel when it comes time to hunt.
In our State a MLer is considered Un Loaded as long as there's NO PRIMER in the Mler. So I can have a loaded MLer with a fouled barrel in my truck to and from hunting as long as there's no primer in it. This makes things easier to have a fouled barrel for extended periods of time for me.
Boy I hope Im making some sence here........
Also another trick I experienced with is, pop a couple of primers or caps through your MLer befor you load it if it's on a clean barrel yet sighted in for a fouled one. The primer/cap residue has enough fouling in it to make up for the fouling from the powder you use and will be pretty darn close to a fouled barrel shot, but again you have to try it and see how it works for you.
To sum this up sight in shoot, ect. Your dead on and have swabbed inbetween every shot or two and your ready, your barrels fouled and your on. Load it when you plan to hunt so you know your first shot will be where it was when you left the range or where ever. But know how long or how soon you have to clean your barrel after it's been fouled and you'll be good.
Or Clean the barrel after every shot as good as you can and be sighted in. So you know when you load on a clean barrel where your clean barreled first shot will go. I prefer the first option it's much easier, also if you take more than 1 shot while hunting there'll be no guessing where your 2nd or 3d shot will be as it'll be the same as it was when you were shooting at the range, no hoping, just dead on shots.
Hope this was'nt too cunfusing and Good Luck.
(BP)
11-08-2012, 06:19 AM
#5
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,482
I've found that it depends on the rifle and load. Generally when I am at the range, I pop a few primers down the clean barrel before I start the range session. I then make sure I swab with 1 windex patch and 1 dry patch between each shot when shooting for accuracy.
Once I have the rifle sighted in, I continue this. Basically:
1. Swab 1 wet patch 1 dry
2. Pop 2 primers down barrel
3. Load
4. Fire
5. Repeat
Using this method, I have not found the first shot to be drastically off from the rest (this is with T7).
For hunting, I will try and shoot a few rounds the night before, swab and reload without doing a full cleaning. I'll then leave the rifle in the truck overnight until the hunt the next day. This has worked well, and I haven't had any rust issues doing this with T7. If I'm not able to shoot the night before, I will at least pop 3 - 4 primers down the barrel before I load it up. Either method has worked fine....
Once I have the rifle sighted in, I continue this. Basically:
1. Swab 1 wet patch 1 dry
2. Pop 2 primers down barrel
3. Load
4. Fire
5. Repeat
Using this method, I have not found the first shot to be drastically off from the rest (this is with T7).
For hunting, I will try and shoot a few rounds the night before, swab and reload without doing a full cleaning. I'll then leave the rifle in the truck overnight until the hunt the next day. This has worked well, and I haven't had any rust issues doing this with T7. If I'm not able to shoot the night before, I will at least pop 3 - 4 primers down the barrel before I load it up. Either method has worked fine....
11-08-2012, 06:32 AM
#6
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 6,585
Well first off this clean barrel is a fallacy there are pours in the metal and what ever you use to preserve your gun from rust will still be in those pours in most cases, I have been experimenting with this problem since about 10 years before inlines were invented.
My best answer is if you use the right cleaner, preservative, and preservative remover and powder some guns will shoot in or close enough to the minute of angle group that it makes no practical difference.
I find that in my Triumph and my Endeavor that cleaning with Hoppes Elite cleaner using Blackhorn and BrichwoodCasey synthetic oil and removing it with alcohal gives me this answer. With my traditionals I use lye soap and boiling water to clean and synthetic oil to preserve and Pyrodex RS for powder. I remove the synthetic oil with alcohol and the scrub with hot water before loading for hunting this has worked well for me.
My best answer is if you use the right cleaner, preservative, and preservative remover and powder some guns will shoot in or close enough to the minute of angle group that it makes no practical difference.
I find that in my Triumph and my Endeavor that cleaning with Hoppes Elite cleaner using Blackhorn and BrichwoodCasey synthetic oil and removing it with alcohal gives me this answer. With my traditionals I use lye soap and boiling water to clean and synthetic oil to preserve and Pyrodex RS for powder. I remove the synthetic oil with alcohol and the scrub with hot water before loading for hunting this has worked well for me.
Last edited by lemoyne; 11-08-2012 at 06:36 AM.
11-08-2012, 12:05 PM
#7
Spike
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 50
Thanks a lot for all the responses, they have definitely cleared things up. It definitely makes sense. I guess what i was wondering was; if there is a difference between clean bore and fouled bore how come Mloaders aren't sighted in with clean bores? That would require a little more work on the day of sighting but would alleviate all the other issues as you could just keep a clean gun and not have to worry about corrosion. After the first shot on game, while a second shot is sometimes necessary most do the job with one shot. I'd even say that the time it takes to reload a round into a mloader is more than enough time for the deer to get away and you've lost your chance or if it is a bad shot you should let the deer rest anyway so that it doesnt get pushed. In circumstances like this I'd rather have a first shot more accurate than consecutive shots and do the job in that first shot. It seems like it would also save a lot of rounds for later.
Another thing that i was thinking about is the degree of fouling. If the first shot is different from the second doesn't that mean that all the shots following will also be effected by fouling to some extent?
I recently took my first deer with a Mloader. It was my fathers TC encore with a .50 mloader barrel. He gave it to me and said go get a deer. My dad is obsessive about his guns so i had not doubt that it was sighted in. I also, just because of his anal nature, assumed that before storing the gun he had cleaned it. When i shot the deer it was a prefect shot that went exactly where i aimed and the deer went about 10 yards before dying. I guess i should ask my dad how he stored the gun as it is the one that i now have (he handed it down to me)
Thanks for all the insight and sorry for this long post. Keep the info coming, I like learning all I can before entering the field.
Another thing that i was thinking about is the degree of fouling. If the first shot is different from the second doesn't that mean that all the shots following will also be effected by fouling to some extent?
I recently took my first deer with a Mloader. It was my fathers TC encore with a .50 mloader barrel. He gave it to me and said go get a deer. My dad is obsessive about his guns so i had not doubt that it was sighted in. I also, just because of his anal nature, assumed that before storing the gun he had cleaned it. When i shot the deer it was a prefect shot that went exactly where i aimed and the deer went about 10 yards before dying. I guess i should ask my dad how he stored the gun as it is the one that i now have (he handed it down to me)
Thanks for all the insight and sorry for this long post. Keep the info coming, I like learning all I can before entering the field.
11-08-2012, 12:33 PM
#8
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 21,193
Thanks a lot for all the responses, they have definitely cleared things up. It definitely makes sense. I guess what i was wondering was; if there is a difference between clean bore and fouled bore how come Mloaders aren't sighted in with clean bores? That would require a little more work on the day of sighting but would alleviate all the other issues as you could just keep a clean gun and not have to worry about corrosion. After the first shot on game, while a second shot is sometimes necessary most do the job with one shot. I'd even say that the time it takes to reload a round into a mloader is more than enough time for the deer to get away and you've lost your chance or if it is a bad shot you should let the deer rest anyway so that it doesnt get pushed. In circumstances like this I'd rather have a first shot more accurate than consecutive shots and do the job in that first shot. It seems like it would also save a lot of rounds for later.
Many hunters do sight in on a clean bore. And they take the time to break the rifle down and clean it before the next shot. This way they learn exactly where that rifle will shoot. Personally since I don't have to shoot long distance, if I am off by say.. 3/4 of an inch between shot clean and shot fouled.. what's the difference. I have a 5 inch kill zone. And besides, animals don't normally stand still for me.
Another thing that i was thinking about is the degree of fouling. If the first shot is different from the second doesn't that mean that all the shots following will also be effected by fouling to some extent?
But each time you shoot, you swab. So the amount of fouling should not be building up in consecutive amounts. You're basically breaking the rifle back to the first fouled shot, since your not breaking the rifle down and fully cleaning it. So the following shots should all be very close.
I recently took my first deer with a Mloader. It was my fathers TC encore with a .50 mloader barrel. He gave it to me and said go get a deer. My dad is obsessive about his guns so i had not doubt that it was sighted in. I also, just because of his anal nature, assumed that before storing the gun he had cleaned it. When i shot the deer it was a prefect shot that went exactly where i aimed and the deer went about 10 yards before dying. I guess i should ask my dad how he stored the gun as it is the one that i now have (he handed it down to me)
Great idea. Dad's love to share knowledge with their kids. Heck my Dad tells me the same thing over and over and over.. just so he can keep sharing. And each time he does, I listen like it was the first time told.. because it makes the old coot happy.
Thanks for all the insight and sorry for this long post. Keep the info coming, I like learning all I can before entering the field.
Many hunters do sight in on a clean bore. And they take the time to break the rifle down and clean it before the next shot. This way they learn exactly where that rifle will shoot. Personally since I don't have to shoot long distance, if I am off by say.. 3/4 of an inch between shot clean and shot fouled.. what's the difference. I have a 5 inch kill zone. And besides, animals don't normally stand still for me.
Another thing that i was thinking about is the degree of fouling. If the first shot is different from the second doesn't that mean that all the shots following will also be effected by fouling to some extent?
But each time you shoot, you swab. So the amount of fouling should not be building up in consecutive amounts. You're basically breaking the rifle back to the first fouled shot, since your not breaking the rifle down and fully cleaning it. So the following shots should all be very close.
I recently took my first deer with a Mloader. It was my fathers TC encore with a .50 mloader barrel. He gave it to me and said go get a deer. My dad is obsessive about his guns so i had not doubt that it was sighted in. I also, just because of his anal nature, assumed that before storing the gun he had cleaned it. When i shot the deer it was a prefect shot that went exactly where i aimed and the deer went about 10 yards before dying. I guess i should ask my dad how he stored the gun as it is the one that i now have (he handed it down to me)
Great idea. Dad's love to share knowledge with their kids. Heck my Dad tells me the same thing over and over and over.. just so he can keep sharing. And each time he does, I listen like it was the first time told.. because it makes the old coot happy.
Thanks for all the insight and sorry for this long post. Keep the info coming, I like learning all I can before entering the field.
11-08-2012, 12:53 PM
#9
Spike
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 50
Just called up my dad, he was happy to hear from me and to tell me more than i needed to know about the gun haha.
One thing that may be different for my particular instance is that i use pyrodex powder. Like i said before i'm really new to this so i have to explain things pretty simply so i dont mean to insult anyones intelligence, it's just the only way i can explain things. Anyway, the way my dad made it sound is that with the pyrodex (the little stacks of preformed powder) i dont need to swab between shots. I'm shooting 3 pyrodex "pods" along with a sabot and fifty cal round. Did i misunderstand him or is it not necessary to swab with that powder?
He pretty much answered everything else for me. what i'm going to do is cut a rag and swab the barrel out to get rid of extra cleaning oils. Then fire a primer through it. He said that this will not be nasty enough to have to worry about the barrel getting messed up and that it will insure an accurate shot.
Again thanks to everyone. Keep it coming though!
One thing that may be different for my particular instance is that i use pyrodex powder. Like i said before i'm really new to this so i have to explain things pretty simply so i dont mean to insult anyones intelligence, it's just the only way i can explain things. Anyway, the way my dad made it sound is that with the pyrodex (the little stacks of preformed powder) i dont need to swab between shots. I'm shooting 3 pyrodex "pods" along with a sabot and fifty cal round. Did i misunderstand him or is it not necessary to swab with that powder?
He pretty much answered everything else for me. what i'm going to do is cut a rag and swab the barrel out to get rid of extra cleaning oils. Then fire a primer through it. He said that this will not be nasty enough to have to worry about the barrel getting messed up and that it will insure an accurate shot.
Again thanks to everyone. Keep it coming though!
11-08-2012, 01:12 PM
#10
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 21,193
Pyrodex is one of the most corrosive powders on the market, and will make your rifle rust faster than most powders on the market. I shoot Pyrodex pellets and swab between shots on the range. Pyrodex does leave a lot of fouling between shots. And if I shoot the rifle that day, I clean it that night.