Musings Of A Retired Hunter & Shooter
 

People think retired guys have a lot of time on their hands. Well it can be true of course. But it's not necessairly idle time. Retired guys can be pretty darn busy. It's just that they they are busy doing things they want to do.

When Fall approaches my attention and time is pretty much devoted to scouting deer sign, clearing trails, checking stands, getting the food plots just right, double checking guns and all of the other stuff that goes along with a passion for deer hunting.

Most of the Winter is devoted to hunting our long November through January season. Throw in holiday activities with the family and the half dozen family birthday celebrations that occur during that same period (wife, kids, grandkids) and not much time is left for idle thoughts and dreaming.

Spring is the time for shooting in glorious weather. Lengthy range sessions with a variety of guns are almost mandatory. Add a few fishing trips, vegetable gardening, Spring food plot preparation and before you know it the heat of Summer is upon you.

Summer. Ah, Summer. Lazy time. How can one not waste away more than a few hours dreaming up new projects. Some practical. More than a few not so practical. Most will remain nothing more than pleasant idle thoughts with a "maybe one day" tag. But once in a while a dreamed-up project just seems too neat to not undertake.

I have one of those. It struck me last Summer and just won't go away.

In an old thread I told my tale of shame about my neglected first muzzle loading rifle - a full stock .40 caliber caplock with a 32" 13/16" barrel. (http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/blac...ale-shame.html) I still haven't gotten around to making things right with that gun and it's a key player in the project in question. It needs to be fixed up and the barrel needs replacement.

Here's the project.

Hornady makes three neat looking .430 pre-lubed lead bullets.



Green Mountain makes a .40 caliber 13/16" x 36" barrel. My thought is to get one of those barrels and send it to someone to be bored and rifled specifically for the Hornady .430 lead bullet.

I don't know what the best rate of twist would be, or how deep the rifling should be, or whether the bore should be exactly .430 land to land, or groove to grove. But the idea has been plaguing me for over a year and I'm right on the edge of committing to it.

What do you think?

That's a beautiful rifle that must be very dear to you. Just how bad is the rust in the bore of that barrel? Is there any pitting in the bore? I would think that as long as it wasn't left with a fouled bore the rust in the bore shouldn't have have pitted it. A while back I showed pictures of a cannon that's not blued that just sat for years on my dresser and had turned brown with rust. It shines like new silver now. If the bore is not pitted just soak the barrel in Evaporust and blue or brown it and it should be fine. To soak the barrel get a piece of PVC pipe and cap one end. Fill it with Evaporust and soak the barrel in it for 24 hours. Maybe if it is only lightly pitted you could have it bored to a .41 caliber. I am only aware of .41 caliber smooth bore pistols so I don't know if that is even possible, it was just a thought.

I'd guess 1-28 on the twist as my Knight inline shoots the .429/240gr bullet very well with that twist...

The biggest problem I see is that with that stock design, a 240gr bullet with 70-80grs of powder is going to kick pretty well...Are you planning to deer hunt with it or go with lighter charges for varmints/target shooting???

If the latter, a .395 round ball would serve the purpose just as well and be much cheaper...

Don't really know nchawkeye. Probably more target shooting and woods walking/plinking than anything. But I wouldn't hesitate to use that 240 grain lead bullet on deer at reasonable ranges. The thing is, I thought I would like something that shoots slip fit conicals well. None of my other guns do that.

White rifles seem to be the king of slip fits. Maybe some of you White owners can shed some light on their features. How deep is the rifling? How many lands and grooves? How snug in the bore does a conical have to be to shoot well?

My White rifles mostly have six lands and grooves but I have one with twelve and one with seven. The gooves are quite shallow, I think about .003 but I'm not positive. I like to see the bullet be lightly engraved when it is loaded. I do not need a short starter because I can get the bullet started easily with my thumb and I can push it down with just a couple fingers on the ramrod. I usually swab between shots but many White shooters do not.
Some people feel that there is a danger of a slip fit conical coming off the charge when hunting. I have not had it happen but I will take my ramrod and check it periodically to make sure that hasn't happened.

Flounder, do you have a White in .45 caliber? If so, what is the twist rate and what weight bullets do you shoot in it?

I would consult the barrel maker and show them the bullets you plan to use. I wonder about those designs, and whether they would obturate correctly. Are there more typically styled muzzleleoading conicals out there in 44 cal? While we're at it, is there a reason to choose 44 cal over 45 cal? I think I'd go with 45, and then you'd have more options with conicals. Seems you like these 44 cal bullets and want a gun to shoot them (not there's anything wrong with that).

Reminds me of the time somone bought me a box of 308 ammo for a birthday present. Nice thought, however I didn't own a 308 at the time. BUT, it was a great excuse to buy one.

Yes I have a couple of them in .451. The twist is 1 in 20 inches. I have shot anything from 420 grain up to 488 grain conicals with good results. I haven't tried anything lighter.

My White M97. 451 caliber has a 1-20 twist. You need to also keep in mind the depth of the rifling. I have never slugged the barrel so I can not help you there. I am sure one of the White nuts can help you out there. Then I shoot a. 451 slip fit 460 grain with 80 grains of triple seven powder. This is very accurate and hard hitting. White also made a. 40 caliber I believe, but I don't know the specs on that.

That is the route I would take if I were going to have it re-barreled.

If I knew the length of the bullet you wish to use I could tell you what the Greenhill formula recommendation is for it.
For example the .430 240 grain lead Hollow point that my 44 mag shoots as a light load at 900 fps in a Rugar with a 1-20 twist would work in a muzzle loader with a 1-37 to 1-38 twist at 1800 fps.

:s2: Yeah. I guess that's true UncleNorby. There's no real logic to it. I just like the thought of shooting them as slip fits. But I'd sure hate to blow the money on the project only to find they don't shoot well.

I wouldn't want to go with a bullet that heavy in this little gun Cayugad. That's why those bullets caught my attention - not too big, not too small. Do you by any chance have any 250 grain .451/.452 conicals you could try in that rifle?

Lee, I would imagine they are pretty much the same length as the 240s you're shooting. If the formula for them works out to 1-37/38 for a muzzle loader at that velocity, do you think there would there be any harm (or benefit) to going with something faster like 1:30 or even 1:24?

Here's an afterthought. In the customer reviews section of Bass Pro Shops web page for TC hollow-point Cheap Shots there are very positive comments regarding both accuracy and performance on deer. Those bullets are in sabots from .50 caliber guns. I assume they were shot from guns with the standard twist of 1:28". The Cheap Shots are "fairly close" in profile the the Hornadys.

http://www.basspro.com/Thompson/Cent...ct/35467/46606


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No I don't have any conicals that light.

Semi,

According to his website, Doc White is still tinkering around with ML's. (unless of course he hasn't updated in site in a while) I bet he would answer your questions about grove depth and rate of twist.

We think alike Dutch. I got an e-mail off to the address on his web page earlier today.

My whites are: 504 has a 1:24 twist
My 451's have a 1:20 twist
My 410 has a 1:16 twist . My best loads are 496 gr conical in the 504, 460 gr in the 451 and a 410 gr in the 410.

Sorry forgot to include depth of grooves are .004-.005
Hope that help

Sharpsshooter, no way would I contemplate a 400+ grain bullet in the gun I want to modify. The deep crescent butt plate would likely tear your shoulder off.

Yes it does Sharpsshooter. Thanks.

When you load your best shooting bullets, does the rifling cut the bullet at all?

The 504 doesn't but the 451 and 410 do but just barely as they are sized just for the Whites .

Semi - I would think that a 1:24 to 1:30 would work. I often thought of trying .451 bullets out of my GM LRH 45 barrel. Trouble is buying store bought they are probably cast too hard. And I don't want to get a mould just to see if they shoot.

Doc White is a true gentleman. Yesterday I sent him an e-mail posing the question. He replied this morning.

Here's his reply.

Bronko, a little while ago I sent an e-mail to Hornady asking for the Brinnel hardness level of the Frontier line of cold swaged lead bullets. I load the Frontier .314/90 grain semi-wadcutters for light plinking loads in a .32 Mag handgun. They seem to be pretty soft and are pin-point accurate in my little revolver.

Hornady has .452 and .454 bullets in the Frontier line, but no .451s. I don't know how the .452s would fit. See them here. http://www.hornady.com/store/Lead-Pi...ullets/?page=2

I had thought about going with the .45s for my little project. But the heaviest .452 is 230 grains and has a round nose profile, which is not what I want. The .454/255 grain flat point looks pretty darn good, but I decided to go with the .430 because it would give me the option of both a Semi Wad Cutter or SWC Hollow Point in 240 grain.

Semi, I think that you are off one decimal place with the .035" groove depth. I am quite sure it should be .0035". I was off .0005" earlier when you asked the groove depth and I said I thought it was .003".

Don't know Flounder. That .035 is a direct quote from Doc White's e-mail.

Don't want to squabble at all Semi, but Doc may have made a typo. I know Knight rifles have a depth of groove of .005 to .006 and Doc's rifles have shallower grooves. Even deep grooved round ball shooting barrels have grooves that are only around .010.

Not squabbling at all. I think you're right. Actually, I was surprised he recommended .430 land to land for the .429 bullet. I expected .429 or even something like .425.

(OOPS. Brain out of gear when I posted the above. The bullets are .430, not .429. Doc's recommendation would be an exact fit.)

Here is a link to something doc wrote. I find it very informative.
http://www.whitemuzzleloading.com/my...oading_rif.htm

Great link Flounder! Thanks. I've never seen that article before. Now I understand his thinking in recommending .430 land to land.