More on the fast twist issue
 

I read an interesting comment from doc white on the 1:28 versus 1:20 twist. Here it is:

Seems to me that it would be intuitive to know that there is no such thing as a single twist that is effective over all the ranges of bullets lengths, weights and velocities. Truth is that each bullet (of whatever length, weight and BC) has its own particular twist requirements at each velocity that it is shot at. Long term studies over the past 100 years have shown that optimum twist for really long bullets*like 460-520 gr in 450 caliber require twists of 1-18 to 1-20. I just ordered a 458 barrel*for a 45-1 7/8" cartridge (the*45-110) with a 1-18 twist. I intend to shoot 520 grain bullets with about 75-90 grains Black Powder at more or less 1200 FPS for long range cartridge. This is exactly the load I use in my muzzleloading Whitworth copy with the same bullet but a 1-20 twist, and I win 700 yard matches with it. If you want to shoot*puny pistol bullets in a 45, using sabots, like many of our modern hunters are doing, then 1-28 might be OK, 1-32 might be better, depends on the BC and the velocity of the*bullet. The BC of a .450 caliber 520 grain bullet is .36, BC of a .357caliber 158 grain saboted pistol bullet is .18 or worse, some as low as .12. Obviously, a single twist won't cut it with both bullets. Also, obviously, the bigger slower bullet with the higher BC will have far higher downrange energy, penetration and knockdown than the puny pistol bullet despite the pistol bullets flatter shorter range trajectory.*

1874sharpsshooter

Doc never has been much on sabots!

Thats for sure. I bought some powerpunch conicals from him a couple years ago. They were 600 gr if I remember right.
Pack quite the punch on both ends of the gun

I'm really not sure why, but for some reason the idea of heavy conicals going kind of slow has really been growing on me lately. I should really find something to shoot them with.

Older 45 super disc 1:20, white 451 1:20 , English sporting rifle 1:20 or 1:18, Gibbs or whitworths with 1:18 . Those are the ones I would pick from to start with

I had an English sporting rifle kit picked out, but after looking into it a little farther, it turns out it was designed to be "bench" rifle, with a long barrel, no ramrod, etc. If I'm going to get a gun it will be for hunting first and foremost. They said they could modify the design and add the barrel rib, ramrod, shorten the barrel, etc. but would add almost $200 to the cost and I just don't think I can swing that at this point.

I shot roundball and big conical bullets for a long time. I never worried about the fact that a pistol bullet was twice as fast. When that conical got there, it knew its job. But I have to admit... sabots and pistol bullets are fun to shoot.

The only problem with heavy slow conicals is you have to aim at the clouds for long shots, but they do kill nice when they finally get there. :)

With the right sights you aim right at the target no mater what the range is.

I am a big fan of big heavy bullets paper patched and sized to fit the barrel exactly the way I want it to. On my new .451 load that 409 gr bullet has over 1000 foot pounds of energy at 200 yards. I am not a big fan of shooting the first shot past 150 yards. But if I had an animal hit and wanted to put another one in him I am planning to sight the rifle in out to at least 300 yards. Ron

What sights would that be Ron?

My Soule sights and creedmore is that way. Even my Lyman peep can be used that way once the ranges are shot and marked on the sight . Even the no name ladder sight I have on a 451 would be be an example

Ps. I know, you were talking to Ron.

I know, but most hunters don't have those on traditional ML hunting guns. I forgot what Ron uses. I saw his guns once.

I don't generally have time to mess with sights when i'm hunting. Then again, I don't take long shots. :confused0024:

The guns I saw of Rons had the Lyman 57 sights on them .

My rifles do have the Lyman 57 SML sights. A lot of guys think they don't have time to change sights. In that case if you know you will be shooting 100 yards or less set the sight at 100 yards. In the case of my 409 gr bullet. The highest the bullet will be above the line of sight with a 100 yard set on the sight would be 1.80" at 50 yards. At 125 yards it will be 3" low. If a guy just puts it on 100 and shoots for dead center your good to go on those, got to do it now shots.

Personally I have found that when I spot and stalk I have PLENTY of time to use my range finder get the range set the sight and take the shot. In the case of my antelope I shot I had the yardage set to the water hole and when he walked up I had the sight already set at 89 yards or close to it, and I just shot him.
The nice thing about the Lyman peep is it's versatility. You can use it as a fixed sight or a instantly adjustable vernier tang sight capable of long range shooting.

I don't normally take long shots either. But on one hunting trip a friend of mine wounded a buck. We both had tags so it was legal for both of us to shoot at this buck. My friend shot it and wounded it. The buck took off and we followed it up. I took a shot at 175 yards and hit him solid but it was still on his feet. My friend shot and the buck moved off un-hit by my friends low shot. I was reloaded and hit the buck again at 185 yards. The buck went down and stayed that way.
Had I not been able to set the sight for that yardage I would have probably missed like my friend did. But since I was able to to set the sight for that yardage the buck was not lost.

I don't think that the Lyman sight is the perfect sight for everyone. I do think that for my style of spot and stalk hunting they are the perfect sight for me. Case in point. In this picture I wasn't aiming at the milk jug, I was aiming at the label, the shot was 150 yards. Ron

Ron, your recent posts with your new bullets have definitely fueled my thoughts some. It just looks like fun.
I was figuring if I got something like a Renegade I would end up also getting either the Lyman or the Williams FP sight.

I don't know if the Williams sight is instantly adjustable or not. Ron

I have both the Lymans and williams. I would take the Lyman hands down. A much better and more versatile sight.

How many of you have tried rifle bullets in sabots with much higher Ballistic Coefficients than the small fast pistol bullets that he did not like? It seems like the happy medium between the extremes...

For instance, I am looking at the 200 gr FTX in .358 with a 35/45 sabot in a 1:20 twist. It has a published BC of .30. I could get really crazy and go for a .35 Barnes TSX with a far higher BC if I wanted to.

Also, I get confused over what full bore conicals out there are designed for blackpowder cartridges, what conicals are for smokeless powder, and what bullets actually are designed for blackpowder muzzleloading...can I just buy bullets designed for blackpowder cartridge reloading and get good results?

I'm not so sure you would get enough velocity for many of the rifle bullets to perform effectively.
Most blackpowder conicals are a pure , or soft lead while cartridge guns usually use a 20-1 or 30-1 lead that would be extremely hard or impossible to load in a muzzleloader. 30-1 would be the hardest I would try to load in a muzzleloader. Also many cartidge bullets have a brass gas check on the base which you dont really want either. The soft lead conical, especially a hollow base, expands into the rifling to creat a gas check.
But it never hurts to experiment.:biggrin: