Black Powder Question.
 

While loading my Renegade this weekend for the finale in Ohio, after I loaded my round ball and patch a friend grabbed the ramrod and slammed it down on the ball several times until the ramrod 'bounced'. He said that was the way to load it right for shooting or hunting.

I had never heard this and all that I have heard here and other forums and was wondering if this was right or okay? I mean, I heard mark the ramrod and make sure it goes all the way down to the powder but never jamming it down like that? I am not a novice at muzzle loading but maybe just a little wet behind the ears yet, but it didn't seem right to me. I was thinking it had to deform the ball or other projectile.

Thanks.

Jeff

You are right....that is wrong. I was told that by my cousin 20+ yrs ago and experienced the bad effects of it firsthand.

Press down and seat load firmly, bouncing can deform your bullet and cause major accuracy issues.

Thanks, confirms what I already thought!

I think your friend watches too many old cowboy shoot em up movies. You see them doing it in those old films. It's hilarious but wrong.

JLmoore1956

I of all people am not a PRB expert not even close... I do a lot of PRB shooting in the spring and early summer shooting the different local Rondy shoots in my area.

I know and I watch of people do exactly what you are describing but it has always bothered me to a certain extent... beating the ball to the bottom with the ram-rod.

A couple of my thoughts were I really did not want the loading jag bouncing off the ball and into the walls of the bore, nor do I want it sliding down the bore as I throw it down the barrel, I know the jag is brass and should not effect the metal of the bore - but non-the-less I can not doe that way. Another area of concern for me is the Crown of the bore... all the time you are bouncing the rod off the ball you are also causing un-due wear on the inside rim of the crown.

With all that said... I really do not know if it is wrong, but I choose to push the load down and firmly seat it on the powder... In the same thought after I pour the powder I do hold the rifle verticle and tap the side of the rifle on the opposite side of the nipple to settle and level the powder, then insert patch and ball. I listen and feel the patch and ball sit and crunch the powder. And finally at that point I do put a firm pressure seat on the patch and ball.

Again - I honestly do not know what is right but that is the way I have taught myself...

Friend or not, he had no business touching your rifle without your permission. If it were me I would have had a few words for him. You use the reference mark on your ramrod only for correct seating depth. Too deep compresses the powder which would affect accuracy and banging the rod down on bullet/ball damages it also affecting accuracy. Not deep enough and you have a potentially dangerous situation where the projectile is not seated over the charge and actually acting as a bore obstruction.
Your friend deserves a good swift kick.

Tell your friend to keep his hands off of your gun. I had a friend of mine say that it's the best way to load a PRB. To show him what all that slamming the ramrod did to the bullet, I loaded my TC Encore with a PRB and seated it with firm preasure, like I do on my sidelock guns. I then pulled the breach plug and pushed the load out of the barrel. I then had him load My Encore his way (slam , slam, slam bang ), I again pulled the breach plug, and pushed the load out. The difference in the 2 round balls was amazing. Mine was still round while his was deformed so much that it wouldn't roll across the work bench. I then asked him which bullet did he think would shoot straighter, after himhawing around for a bit he realized the error of his slamming ways.

I've played around quite a bit with different compression pressures on patched balls and have concluded that the best accuracy is obtained by having the ball just touch the powder with no (or very little compression).

I now seat the first ball very carefully until I feel it just touch the powder, then set the stop collar on the loading rod so all subsequent loads are seated to the same spot. Now this is with GOEX. I have no idea whether the same would be true with other powders. Also, you must remember to re-do the setting if you change powder loads.

I was at the range one day and seen a men with a rubber hummer pounding on a bullet to get it down in the barrel of a ml I stoped and ask if there was anything wrong he said no everythings fine this thing is just all ways been hard to load and his been doing this for 20 years:jaw:

I'd stay several benches away from that guy lol

JW

A guy I work with bought a new Optima this fall and went to the range with his buddy. Being inexperienced in muzzleloading his buddy said he'd load it for him. He handed him the gun back for him to shoot after loading it. The buddy who loaded it was watching the target with his binoculars and said after the shot " what were those branches flying through the air?" It was the ramrod. It was the very first round fired out of the gun. Lesson learned. Do everything yourself.

You see it in the movies all the time. The soldier loads then bounces the ramrod to insure the projectile is seated. Well that might be fine and dandy in a smoothbore musket. But you are correct.. have a witness mark and push to that mark. Deforming the ball will do you no good. Also I have to agree with the comments of a friend should have never taken upon himself to do that with your rifle. But then friends do strange things sometimes and get away with it. Keep up the good work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REpqBk-BQ38

Hammering down the bullet seemed to work for these guys!

Crazy!

Not hard to figure where bad habits come from.

I'll let you guess what forum those guys hang out on.:s13::s13:

I hope his not training someone the same way his doing it this scares me

Well I let him take it because he wanted to show me something and afterwards I thought about it.

And I agree, I am no expert just didn't think all was right.

Thanks for the input.

Well to be honest it was my brother, and he has taken a few deer in his day, muzzle loader and shotgun. I thought he was trying to help but I just didn't think things were right. I am trying to figure out who taught him. That is scary!

Unbelievable. That gene pool needs more chlorine.

Actually that did happen to me once. I had a .45 cal rifle and for some reason the bore was so tight that the first time I shot it I was using a .440 RB and .015 patch. I rap it into the bore with the short starter, then a couple raps with the long end of the short starter and that's when I knew I was in trouble. Pushing down with the ramrod was futile and I knew I would never be able to pull the bullet. So, as gently as possible, I tapped the end of the wooden ramrod until the ball was finally seated on the charge. Capped the nipple and at arms length, closed my eyes and pulled the trigger. I believe I ended that shooting session after that.

And if that rifle had blown up they'd most likely blame the rifle. Talk about stoooopid

First round is easy to seat, 2nd round a bit harder, after that I run a patch or 2.

Bouncing yer ramrod does nothing.

When I got into shooting muzzleloaders (early 1970s) I often attended a local monthly shoot. At those matches it was home cast round ball loads, and almost everyone used a "spit patch" of pillow ticking. I've seen many amazing groups at up to 100 yards, and shot a few myself.
The bouncing the ramrod was not used often, but it would confirm the load was seated if the shooter was in doubt. The spit patch kept fouling down, but occasionally a load just didn't feel like it was seated right, and the bouncing the ramrod would remove (or confirm) doubt.
I never saw much effect on accuracy from just bouncing of the rod on the ball. The ramrod would be lifted up about half the barrel length and allowed to fall using gravity and it's own weight. If it made a dull thud and didn't bounce the load wasn't tight against the powder, if it "rang" and bounced everything was fine.
In those matches a complete miss wasn't counted, so if the ball had to be hammered down on the powder you could just miss paper & shoot again.

I am not sure I understand bouncing but I guess it is a matter of choice and as some said consistency. So I will keep doing it the way I did and make sure I do it at the range and the field.

And it was a fellow member here, I think it was cayugad that mention a mixture of 50 50 alcohol and washer fluid. I have been using it since and when on the range I do it between shots. When hunting once I finish I shoot the load out and wipe it so I can reload next morning or put in rack till next use.:barmy:

I logged on to pose a question but this seems a more than appropriate place for it:

Finally received an aluminum range rod from Cabela's which is much more stout than the T/C I've been using for the past 8-9 years. The effect of this is that I am now seating the ball tighter w/ much less effort than before; NOT ramming, just pushing the rod.
The immediate difference, and the subject of my intended post, was that my shot groups changed considerably using this new rod!
Of particular interest was Semi's post re: PRB just touching his GOEX. I use 777 2f but assume the same hold true.
Clearly, using a hammer/axe head is excessive; I'd hate to be their neighbor should those guys in Ohio ever get ahold of a repro canon. But, how seated is "seated"?

Be careful of that assumption 3seasons. Triple Seven and GOEX have different burning characteristics and may not behave the same at all.

Even with GOEX this may be one of those things that are gun specific and one gun may like a little more compression than another. I pointed out my finding just to show that this is something worth experimenting with to see if it makes a difference in your gun. Consistency is the key regardless of what level of compression is used.

The only time I have noticed this action was around those N-SSA folks. They shoot mini balls and I thought that they did this because they wanted to seat the mini down and maybe help flare the skirt some to get a better seal.

A lot of you guys keep talking about running patches down the barrel. Well during a heated battle, I am sure those rebels and yankees didn't have much time to think about a patch and wanted to get that mini ball down their barrel to get the next shot off and kill something!

Now as to a hunting gun, not military type, I have never seen anyone slam the ram rod down on a load. Maybe others have, but not me. But as with everything else around here this is JMHO folks. ;)

Gonna bet their barrel tolerances were not as stout as our highly accurate machined tolerances.

Pyrodex should be compressed to perform well. But you can easily do this by pushing the bullet onto the charge, then firmly applying pressure once the bullet contacts the charge. You will see the rod continue down about 1/8" or 3/16" with a charge around 90-100 gr. Try to do this as uniformly as possible.

Well I feel like a fool............
Back say 20+ years ago when I first started MLer hunting I borrowed my father in laws mler, he showed me how to load it and he did the slam the rod into the ball thing untill the ram rod bounced out of the barrel and he caught it, he said the ball had to be seated good on the powder. Also when I went on a few (Randavoes) or however you spell it, the guy's there were loading there mlers the same way, so I just always asssumed it was the way to do it.
I'd pour in the GOEX 3f, then the patch and ball, and then throw the ram rod down the barrel many times untill it bounced out of the end of the barrel and I caught it. My groups were always good and I killed a bunch of deer with his old mler. Had it not been for us being able to use Inlines and Sabots now I probably would have still been loading this way.
I was'nt going to comment on this and just feel stupid and keep it to myself. I guess you do learn something new every day.........
(BP)

I agree. Doubt I will ever do it that way, but I learned something and guess it still boils down to preference.:confused0024: