Muzzleloader Barrels, care, breaking in and life spans
 

I was going to rply to the Thread that (onetohunt) started about his Mountaineer and weather or not there was a Break-In Process needed for the barrel befor it got to it's sweet spot and started to shoot good.
Sabotloader said yes, also because the Mountaineer's Barrel was coated with (Dyna Tek) and this had to be worked out of the barrel along with many shots befor the barrel started to show it's real potential on the range....I got to thinking.
So I know we all dont use the same Powders, Bullets and Cleaning Supplies on our MLer Barrels, and we also have Blued and Staineless Steel Barrels and there all made by different manufactures. Some require things like JB's Bore Paste to smooth out the Barrel as there may be tiny inperfections left behind in the manufacturing process and these need to be removed befor the barrel can really start to group well, other's like the Bergara Barrel have had a Polishing Process done at the factory so they are smooth and ready when you go to shoot.
What if anything do you do to your Barrel to get it to that sweet spot? What do you use after your barrel is broken in? For instance I have Stainless Steel Bergara Barrels on My Accura's, they did'nt need a break in process, but I never use a Brass Brush for cleaning, just a nylon one because I dont want to wear out the barrel, is this possible? can after years of use a MLer Barrel lose it's accuracy because of all the shots through it and many cleanings? I also use Montana Extreme Bore Conditioner, this reall helps when I go to clean as clean up is fast and easy and my barrels so far show no signs of wear or loss of accuracy.
I know I dont shoot as much as a-lot of you on here so do your older MLer's with 1000's of shots through them lose there accuracy after years of use? If so when did you notice this and if not how have you preserved the accuracy in your MLer Barrels? Also what are your Do's and Dont's of careing for your MLer Barrels?
(BP)

Breechplug
If you follow the manufacture of a Bergara you will see that they polish the bore before rifling. The rifling process is what causes the fine burrs and slightly rough edges which produces the need for break in.
Using PRB and black powder I have worn out a number of barrels , but with sabot and subs I have never worn one out.

why would the PRB wear more than the sabot? or did you just shoot it more?

I found my triumph took about 100 rounds through it before it loaded smooth and starting grouping the best. this is with no bore treatment, like JB's bore paste, before hand.

johnnyo
I am not sure why but the PRB wears a barrel much faster than lead or sabot.

lemoyne,
Im completely educated on the Bergara Barrel Manufacturing Process, that's why I love em so much. I guess I had to many questions in this Thread. I probably should have asked if anyone has (Worn Out) a MLer Barrel and if so how long did it last and what was shot through it to wear it out, and what was done to keep it shooting good through the years. And if anyone has had to (Break-In) there MLer Barrel befor it shot good, and if not what Barrel do they have on what MLer.
(BP)

I have a old knight 45cal 1-20 twist got it new have around 5100 rounds on this gun and shoots good but shoots better today then when i first got it and have shot only sabot in this gun for know this one steel going

Im no expert, but I would think the Patch is the cause of this. I dont know how long the patch stays around the ball as it passes through the barrel but it would seem the patch would wear out the rifling. A Sabot is soft and guides the bullet through the rifling causing less friction then the patch.....just my guess.
(BP)

I'm sorry but I do not believe you can wear out a muzleloader barrel if it is properly maintained. The velocities and projectiles used (patches, sabots, lead) are too soft to cause any damage to the rifling. The only possible damage would be heat erosion near the breech area or corrosion from lack of cleaning.Or another reason could be improper cleaning techniques (not sufficient or manual damage of the rifling from cleaning rods, jags, etc.) This is the main reason why our forefathers usually got smaller caliber rifles when purchased new so after they became corroded from the black powder residue to the point of being inaccurate they had them rebored to a larger caliber. Much cheaper than buying a new rifle. Also, as for the polishing of the bore, IMO this is done for the ease of loading and cleaning and indirectly for accuracy. My explanation for this is the rifle will shoot great provided the correct load combo is used for that particular rifle. That is until the imperfections in the barrel begin to collect particles of fouling in whatever form. This fouling will make the rifle harder to clean, (to get the crud out of the minute spaces), harder to load, and have an effect on the rifle's accuracy. Now, depending on the particular rifle, this effect may actually improve the rifle's performance. But it will be short lived as the fouling will eventually begin to corrode the barrel making it inaccurate and hence 'shot out'.

the only wear in a barrel that i have ever seen was right at the crown and that's due to the normal ramrod hitting the spot over time and wearing it down.

I really don't see how black powder would make a barrel wear out faster either if you clean your rifle when you get done shooting. My barrels will all outlive me.

Jon, crown wear is more than likely the #1 accuracy killer, most are not even aware of it being a problem. i always use a bore guide when cleaning and loading, only time i don't is under hunting situations.

One of my rifle has been used extensively for testing breech plug design, and ignition of BH209. It has seen a very many many shots. Now, when it is loaded, i can feel a loose spot just above where the bullet sits, that seems to be about 2 or 3 inches long. Right or wrong, i think this loose spot is due to barrel erosion from the heat of cumbustion. The rifle didn't shoot very accurately the past few times out, so i removed the scope, and put it on another rifle. In my mind, this rifle is worn out.

This rifle would probably be in much better shape right now, if it didn't belong to me. I have left it dirty, loaded, outside in many many nights, and days of sub-zero weather. It has been shot in temperatures over 95, to the point where one couldn't hold onto the barrel for an instant. The barrel has minor pitting from end to end caused by rust. Even though it was pitted, it still shot real good up until the loose spot developed.

This rifle' barrel is blue. It was purchased on sale. It has been a marvelous test bed. In my mind, it has exposed many many myth about what it takes to ignite BH209, and for that i am forever grateful. However, i admit to being a little sad, because it can no longer shoot straight, and this is due to the ways i abused it.

send it in for warranty/replacement. Thats what its fer

No it isn't.

yes it is, just send it in with your name and info.

I have been reading "The Complete Black Powder Handbook" by Sam Fadala, copyright 1979 by DBI Books, Inc, Northfield, IL. He has a chapter on accuracy, in it he says that after 1,000 rounds accuracy begins to deteriorate. He used three rifles in a test to come up with this, he used patched ball in all of them. He says that groups went from 1 and 1/2 inches at 75 yards to 2 and 1/2 inches and a bit more by the time that the 2,000th shot was fired. He tried using a thicker patch, which helped a little and larger balls but the best accuracy was gone forever. This was in .50 cal guns. He also said that it took about 100 rounds for the new barrels to group well.
He thinks the patch may serve to lap the barrel causing wear.

I think I will shoot short conicals and not patched RB if my gun will shoot them well.

he also shot massive 200gr 2f loads. On the traditional forum this writer was getting slammed badly. I never read the book, guess i will have to pick up a copy.

200 gr FFg loads. Wow, that would have been like a flame thrower. No wonder the barrel eroded from all that heat all the way up the barrel.

See, I think I was on to something here.
(BP)

Sam did not say what kind of load he was using except it was behind patched RB. This was a test about accuracy, supposedly. In the same book he tells about a test he ran to see how much abuse(heavy load) you could give a gun before it blew up. He ran this on three guns. One gun was a .58 cal with a one inch across the flats barrel. He started with a 600 grain Minie and 100 grains of FFFg and worked his way up to 500 grains of powder. This didn't blow, so he backed up to 400 grains of FFFg behind two 600 grain Minie's. This also didn't blow so he kept the 400 grains of powder and shot three 600 grain Minie's. Everything held together. Finally, he went back to two Minie's in front of 400 grains of powder, except he left about 14 inches between the powder and the base of the first Minie loaded. That blew it up. This barrel was on a stand and was fired by pulling a string. He tried another just like the first and could not blow it up either until powder and Minie was separated. He then did a .50 cal Morse, then sold by Navy Arms. On this one he used both patched ball and Maxi balls. At one point he had three Maxis separated from the charge of 300 grains of FFFFg pan powder, no blow up. He finally put 200 grains of Bullseye smokeless powder behind one Maxi ball and that blew it up.

And I am afraid to shoot 100 grains of Pyro RS in mine.

Im not afraid to shoot 150grs of Pyro, done it many times with excellant results. One day my buddys and I were talking about how much a MLer could take befor it blew. We cut a piece of plywood with a hole big enough to stick the MLer through and get a hand on the trigger and fire being protected in case something happened, we loaded a TC Black Diamond with 200grs of Pyro Pellets and a 240gr XTP, she fired and we all survived, everyone was too chicken to try 250grs..........
I bet with todays MLer's that the Manufactures have to test the MLers with at least that much powder so in case someone accidentally loads a 150gr charge on top of another 150gr charge and fires, so that it wont blow and they sue em.
If My MLer was as accurate with 150grs as it was with 110 I'd use 150, but it is'nt. It does a heck of a job with 150gr's at 100yds and less but anything further it loses accuracy.
What I will say is 150gr's at a 100yds or less does a much better job than 100gr's does, if all your shots are less than 100yds I;d use 150grs all the time, even better is 150gr's at 75 yds or less, it's like a cannon hitting the deer, they dont have a chance. But for further shots over 100yds it's too much powder to be dead on accurate. So for the best results for shots from 0-175yds 110grs of Pyro works perfect.
(BP)

The maker of my Hawken(Investarm) says that the max load for it is 90 grains with .490 ball or 80 grains with a 370 grain conical. I have shot 80 grains behind a 240 grain conical a few times but not enough to see what load is accurate, if any. I have never shot a round ball thru it. It is a slow twist, about one in 60 or 66 as best as I can measure it, and is 15/16 inch across the flats. Seems to me that it should be able to stand more powder, TC says 110 grains max behind RB for the same barrel size. The gun is better looking then the TC Hawken, or I would trade it off.

BP but those heavy charges are the reason for barrel erosion. Sure as heck isn't the patch or ball or lead conical wearing them out. (Unless you use sandpaper for a patch). Very much like throat erosion in a centerfire barrel.

I have never seen a ML barrel worn out. And I have handled many a gun that was over a hundred + years old. Now I have seen a lot of dirty, abused, and corroded barrels from lack of care. I have also seen a lot of leaded barrels that look like the have been shot out, but needed nothing more then a good lead cleaning! But I would have to agree with MD about the crown damage do to ramrods. And Bronko's idea of blast erosion, but that would entail a small area of a barrel and not the entire length.

JMHO guys.