Dont get to excited yet.
 

Mountaineer magic started a pretty good thread about the 1/20 twist barrels the other day. After shooting two 1/20 twist muzzleloaders this past weekend i was really excited until now. There might actually still be a problem.

I was talking to Dave from Lehigh Defense tonight about the two new bullets he is making for the 45cal fast twist Muzzleloader. One is a 250grn 40cal bullet, and the other is a 225grn 40cal bullet. Yes these will be brass bullets and long very high BC bullets.

During the conversation he was explaining to me how a fast twist barrel will make a poor designed bullet fly worse. In simple terms, a hollow point off center. Even tipped bullets have hollow points for the tips. So this started me thinking about the different bullets people use and the inconsistencies in them today. Jacketed bullets are more then likely going to be the worst.

This makes me wonder now, was the sabots the problem in the past or the bullets????? I know everyone thinks sabots, but i'm not convinced of that at all right now. Lets think about two bullets that are very popular that come to mind right away to me. Hornady XTP'S and SST'S. They are both jacketed bullets. And both are right up there in popularity with Powerbelts in my opinion. And i will say both are really accurate with sabots in 1/28 twist ML's.

My speculation today is, Modern day Muzzleloader twists are built around poor designed or put together bullets? Sounds crazy but its possible i think.

Lets talk about Lehigh/Bloodline bullets. Some like the design some don't. That's life to be honest, but you cant take away how well they are made. They are machined to very tight tolerances and consistencies wether they work good or not. Another bullet built around very tight tolerances are Cecil Epps Deadcenter bullets. If my thinking is correct i bet Deadcenter bullets shoot very well in the 1/20 twist as well. Of course under 2000fps with lead.

The next best bullet i would think would be a Barnes because they are a solid bullet. I would think a solid bullet would be alot easier to make consistent then a jacketed bullet for example. But if the hollow point in the Barnes is a little off center forget it in a 1/20 twist. This is what i was getting from Dave. That same bullet might shoot lights out in a 1/28 twist?????

This thread is not about who makes the best bullet. This thread is about who makes a bullet that will shoot in a 45 cal 1/20 twist saboted ML.

So i guess my testing has just begun. I need to shoot a wide variety of bullets to prove right or wrong to this theory. No way in the world could Knight Rifles make and build a ML to shoot one specific bullet. I guess they could but i would not suggest it.

This weekend i will try a variety of different bullets and also try the MMP sabots as well. I think this is going to be interesting when all said and done.:party0005:

Must be nice to have that in, with the companies. I have not been able to get a return call for two days or a response to an email. :sad0064:

I really don't see a point with a 1:20 twist. I get amazing accuracy with a 454gr conical and a slow 1:48 twist. A 1:20 twist would be for something that none of us shoot..... 700gr conicals.

Now with the " some bullets will shoot worse" theory, it sounds like a bigger oopsie than when they came out with the .52cal.

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Grouse, I'm not too sure about the problem. T/C's Encore .45-70 barrel and Marlin's Guide gun both have a 1:20 twist rate and they both shoot well. T/C's 45-70 pistol barrel has a 1:14 twist rate. And most of the 40s have a 1:16 twist rate.
But going thru the numbers (http://www.uslink.com/~tom1/twistrate.htm) with a .451 groove dia and MV of 1800 fps, optimum bullet length of 1.5" would be needed for a 1:20 twist rate. That's one long bullet. For a 1:28 twist rate, all else being equal, a bullet length of just over an inch would be ideal.
But according to these calculations, my Marlin Guide gun with the 1:20 twist should never be able to shoot the short stubby 300 gr Hornady bullets. But it does and shoots them well.

Most people dont know the true advantage of the Knight 52cal rifle. To me it's the 1/26 twist barrel. Knight does not promote that at all. That gun shoots all the bullets very well. That would also be a great Conical shooter to. I'm sure it would be easy to make bullets for.

The fast twist White rifle was made to shoot a solid conical bullet. So that would explain why they shoot them so well. Solid, and all lead.

Most wont just like you. The guy looking for speed and high BC will. A good example is Dougs board. Those guys are buying $600.00 Savages taking the barrel off and spending another fortune for a 45cal barrel in a 1/22 twist.

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Dont forget the 52 uses .458 bullets. Remington, Hornady, Speer, Barnes, Lehigh, etc all make .458 bullets.;)

if knight made a fast twist .45 I'd also be a customer, especially if Lehigh is going to make some high BC 200gr+ .40 cals!!

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I agree with Lehigh Dave's assessment if your a match shooter and a machinist. the problem isn't quality bullets, it's the "length" of the bullets a 1:20 shoots well.Chet posted a great example with the 240 gr dead center bullet.if hornady or speer would make a special M/L bullet for the .40 cal, that weighed in at.225-.240 gr they would be tack drivers. why? the length of the bullet.the 185 gr Lehigh and the Barnes .195 are at the top of spectrum length wise due to the material there made from and both shoot well in the 1:20.the longer Lehigh 200 gr has to be pushed, since it's actually long for caliber.the 1:20 problems are not sabots or the twist.jacket or solid material bullets are the way to go if one wants a flat shooting bullet.the pure lead offerings can only be pushed so far before they start having problems of there own."point and case" the hornady SST and the Harvester PT gold plated bullets are among the most accurate on the market.this subject has been covered many times and it comes down to length of bullets for caliber not weight or even quality.

Yep,
I dont see the point of using anything else other than a 195 Barnes Expander MZ in a 45 cal..

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Jon if you think your accuracy is amazing with a 454 gr in a 1:48, you would be blown away with a Knight rifle in 1:28 with a .460 gr slip fit conical.

It would be extremely hard to out do the group i shot lol. No matter what bullet or barrel twist.

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Imagine what the group would have looked like with a scope :)

Josh 200 gr plus Lehighs can't be pushed hard enough to work in the 45 cal 1:20, for caliber there way to long.now a lead jacketed .225-.240 would do extremely well. it's not about weight and it's all about length.Lehigh list the 200 gr as to long for caliber..

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Next problem Lehigh is going to have to offer bullets to the public not just Knight Only

Exactly lol. Thats why i said, it would be darn hard to beat my last group with that combo.

I dont have a .45 nor do I think I'll ever own one. How does all of this, if any relate to a .50cal with it's different Twist with different Bullets?
(BP)

It doesnt relate
Just a dream for a few people:party0007:

Chet you have to outstanding bullets for the .45 cal 1:20 at you disposal already. the .195 gr Barnes and the .185 gr lehigh.wouldn't it be nice if the SST,XTP,deep curl and even the PT gold were made in that .225-.240 gr range, which increases there length, BC and overall accuracy for long range shooting.not to mention there SD !!!!

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Chet i have seen it before and you have to really push that 200 gr bullet,in order to get it to shoot.. lehigh Dave on his web site states it's long for caliber and has to be pushed (2,300 fps or better)and that the 185 is a better choice.. which i think i have already stated in this thread lol.in order to reach that one needs what,130-140 gr of BH or 777.?

Do any of you have any White Powerstar sabot'd bullets for the .45 caliber? That's a 350 grain, very high BC, all-lead bullet that shoots incredibly well out of anything from 1:20 to 1:28 twist bores - so long as the barrels are good, the rifling is very consistent, and the crown does not detract from accuracy (most QLA barrels, for example).

And I think that last part is where most of the manufacturers have been lacking in their 1:20 twist attempts.

You guys who want a longer heavier bullet for the .45 might want to give something like the 210 grain .410 caliber bullets made for the 41 Mag. a try. They load a little tight, but OK in my .45 Green Mountain barrel with Harvester's crush rib 45/40 sabots (H14540BR). The difference may be small, but they are longer and heavier than the 200 grain .400's.

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Did you ask Steve at WhiteRifles.com if he has any of those. I think he did, at one time, have a very large supply of them.

I would want to be doubly sure before sending him any money though.

I think those bullets were actually made by Buffalo Bullets.

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Chet,I think the .45 cal 1:20 is a great twist personally. i just feel Knight would have a hell of a time trying to produce another 1:20 .45 and get people to buy it considering what happened last time.any .45 cal twist is going to need a lot of promotion and bullet selection to be a viable caliber on the M/L market,regardless of twist.i like the idea of a bit heavier bullet for the long range shooting for obvious reasons..

That site still says under construction but you can email him from there. I think he's too busy selling costume jewelry to pay much attention. :(

True considering the past reputation but look at the past reputation CVA overcame through marketing. Back when Jim shockey completed his ultimate slam and knight was a household word you wouldn't have thought TC would dominate the market in a few years but they did. So the reputation could be overcome I believe as a new generation fills the ranks of blackpowder shooters. It would take aggressive marketing for sure