BH209 in the cold?
 

I'm going tomorrow (hopefully) to get the Pro Hunter sighted in. I'm going back and forth between Pyrodex and BH209. I would prefer to use BH, but I want to make sure it's reliable in the cold. I don't remember seeing a lot reports of it in the cold, good or bad.
Can anyone tell me how it ignites at sub zero temperatures?

Can't tell you about sub zero, but it works just fine in single digits for me. I use a Remington STS. But that being said, I only use BH in BPs that Western recomends.

BH ignites reliably in sub-zero weather.

Breech plug design is critical. The past 2 winters have seen me testing, testing, testing, and retesting BH in sub-zero cold. So many times my rifles were left loaded, uncleaned in the truck overnight in sub-zero weather. With the proper breech plug, i never experienced a delay, or a misfire. Normal shot gun primers are what was used.

What i found is the Omega plug is 100% reliable. Modified CVA plugs are 100% reliable, but OEM CVA plugs will experience delay, and misfire.
The plug in the Triumph is 99% reliable, but ever so seldom i had a delay. I believe the plug in the pro hunter is very similar to the Triumph plug, and as such should be very very reliable in sub-zero weather for igniting BH. I could make it 100% reliable, but now is not the time.

Don't buy into the malarky that you need to enlarge the flash hole and/or flash channel to improve ignition of BH. Nor do you need to use magnum primer.

My opinions are just that opinions, but they are based on burning a case or more of BH209 in sub-zero weather, not on what i have read.




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Kirby, it is my belief that cold weather even really cold weather effects BH-209 any worse than any smokeless powder. I do not believe it is the powder that might cause the problem.

I believe the problem exists in how cold the metal is in the ignition area. Often, and this has been my experiance, so much heat is lost by the ignition source in warming the metal on the way to the powder that enough heat does not arrive at the powder to ignite it in the cold barrel.

I hate to use Jim Shockey as an example.. but he has faced this same problem in some of the cold weather arctic type hunts that he does. His cure is that he wraps the breech area with a hand warmer while hunting. Not sure I would take it to this degree.. but I would certainly give consideration to heat loss due to being absorbed by surronding metal.

Using a hotter ignition source may solve a lot of the problems if there is a doubt and having a breech plug that will deliever the flash to the powder in a timely manner without obstruction is certainly important. Use a BP with a clean flash channel and have a breech plug that can breath and direct the bulk of the flash to the flash hole without delay.

Nothing replaces your own personal testing...

Just my thoughts...

Here's a good cold weather video testing BH209 in one of Ron's modified breechplugs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL8jN804Seg

Not me........just happened to find it on youtube

Thanks guys. I'll go ahead and sight in with BH209 this year. Hopefully in the winter I'll have time to play with it more.

Ron, how do you modify the Pro Hunter plug without enlarging the flash channel?

I did modify my Triumph Speed Breech just for that reason and the other obvious reasons...

First i would like to make it clear that i have fired my Triumph many many times in sub-zero weather with perfect results. A couple three times i noticed a slight delay. This delay was so short, i kinda think it didn't much affect the shot.











What i did to the Triumph plug is make the cavity on the end some deeper, so it was more like the Omega plug. This was done with a 82 degree 5/16" center drill. This destroyed the flash hole, so it had to be replaced using a vent liner. The flash hole diameter in the vent liner is the same as the flash hole in the new Triumph plug, which is 0.028" to 0.029".












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CVA OEM plugs work perfect without modification to the flash hole or channel. Proper head space adjustment is more important than a dished out plug face.

With my new Optima i had zero trouble firing BH209 with just my head space adjusted. Many many members on my forum run the head space adjustment on a factory plug since i taught them how to do it. I still prefer the 5/32" flash channel as i am mainly a target shooter and the dirtiness doesnt affect the group size as it used to on the factory 3mm flash channel.

Kirby

Because of the length of that breech plug and the 1/8" flash channel - it really could effect the ability of the primer to ignite BH in sub zero weather. And then again it might not but I have read of this problem with the Speed Breech.

Only you will know for sure when and if it happens - me I modified mine...

Aren't you the same person that wrote he drilled out his CVA OEM breech plug flash hole to 0.035" to make them work with BH209. You also wrote that you were able to fire thousands of shots through said breech plug with zero erosion of that enlarged flash hole. Now that is laughable!

The old OEM CVA plugs worked so well igniting BH209 that CVA is now offering for sale on their website BH breech plugs designed to better ignite BH209. The new CVA breech plugs look like this:






CVA sure wasted a lot of money making new more better for igniting BH breech plugs, it seems.

Don't forget, we were addressing sub-zero temperatures.










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SuperKirby,
:lmao:Good question, i will send you a PM later.

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I used to follow Western powder recommending the .035" flash hole. Ever since learning to adjust the head space, ZERO trouble on a factory plug set up.

Aren't you the one that claimed to have worn out a lehigh liner in 109 some odd shots? :busted: Now THAT is laughable

I made no 'claims'. What i wrote is i witnessed the brazed in vent liner grow from 0.031" when new, to 0.035" after 108 shots. I didn't think it was so very laughable, because i had paid $52.30 for the breech plug. It seemed to me there was an issue when the vent liner was brazed, or perhaps beings how they knew they were going to braze the vent liner they didn't harden it. Either way i was quite surprised it eroded so quickly. I know what i measured.

I didn't consider the breech plug to be worn out when the flash hole in the vent liner grew to 0.035", but i was fortunate to receive another breech plug from a friend. The fact i had a spare plug allowed me to have at removing the brazed in vent liner. It turned out to be not so very difficult to drill away the vent liner, and now i am using that plug with a newly installed vent liner.

Myself, i have shot my Accura some less than 2000 times, and it is obvious to me from this experience that an OEM breech plug made by CVA will not withstand thousands of shots without suffering erosion of the flash hole. This is why i laughed when i read your statement of zero erosion in thousands of shots.

This thread is about whether BH209 has ignition issues at sub-zero temperatures, and the answer is it doesn't.....................




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Gee Grouse, I still don't have one yet. Guess I'll check later.

Thanks for the pictures Ron. I'll have to check later but I believe the end of my Pro Hunter plug is shaped differently. I can't remember though. I'll let you know when I pull it out later.

Your pro-hunter plug is shaped differently. Ron likes to add a powder pocket in his creations. It actually moves the powder closer to the primer which moves it closer to an Omega type plug. It is a good theory and by math should and does work fine. I prefer to keep the flash channel at the end of the plug. It creates a flash chanel that has greater volume to reduce the pressure on the blow back pressure on the nose of the primer.

To me the key is the size of the flash channel - opening it to a larger diameter allows the plug to breath and be more efficient while also increasing the volume of the flash channel.

The pictures are small so you might have to magnify them...

I realize this thread is about cold weather. But if BH-209 is more like smokeless powder than Black Powder. Then I would think the temperature sensitivity would be toward the high end of the temperature range?? Not the low end. Unless we are talking really low temperatures??

My concern would be more about the sensitivity of the powder in the 90* to 100* range?? Or in the hot sun??

I would think the key to cold shooting would be to keep the channel completely clean?? And the powder as dry as posible. Even if this powder is not suppose to be hygroscopic. I would still think that direct moisture would still effect it??

All this coming from a guy who has only shot about 25 shots with BH-209. But I have put 10 of thousands of CF rounds down range. And that has been my experience with different CF powders. I always shoot a powder that is not temperature sensitive in my CF's.

Also where I live, when the temperatures are cold then the mositure in the air is very high. So I would not be sure if it was the temperature that effected the powder? Or the moisture?? Even if the powder is not suppose to be hygroscopic?? I would think that direct moisture would still effect the powder?? Am I wrong about that?? Tom.

Sorry, you got it now.:wave:

I shot it in -5 with no problems in a stock Omega BP.

My experience is the same.

A while back JStanley exposed us to Bernoulli' Principle. If one examines the principle, and applies the knowledge to breech plugs, one discovers some surprising things, that are counter-intuitive.

Last winter i kept the Accura, and the V2 Accura loaded in my truck every night. Whenever the temperature would drop below zero, i took them rifle wrapped them in blanket, and put them in the back seat whilst i drove up to where i could shoot. When i pulled them out of the blanket the barrels stuck to my fingers, so i had to exercise care whilst handling them. I never once experienced a delay with either rifle.

The flame channel of the QRBP in the V2 was left 3mm most of the winter. A chamber in the powder end was created in the QRBP, by using a vent liner. A home made stainless vent liner was used through the winter. It began with a 0.029", and ended with a 0.030" flash hole.



Once whilst removing the carbon from the flame channel with a powered drill, i accidentally enlarged the flame channel to 1/8", which it is today. The picture also shows a Holo-Krome vent liner, not the stainless.

The success of this breech plug in sub-zero weather can be understood by examining it using Bernoulli principle. The smaller flame channel transfers the heat from the primer to the powder quicker than the heat would move in a larger flame channel. Also, the smaller flame channel has less surface area than a larger flame channel, thus there is less contact between the flame and the walls of the flame channel.

The Accura breech plug is similar, but different. It is shorter than the QRBP. Because the flame channel is shorter it carbons quicker, so i made it larger, not so much to ignite the BH, but so it didn't get plugged so quickly. The flame channel in this plug is 5/32". The flash hole began at 0.028", but has grown to 0.032" as pictured.





Both of these plugs were a perfect success igniting BH this past winter in sub-zero weather.




Myself, i know for a fact that enlarging the flame channel and/or flash hole is not necessary for successfully igniting BH209 in sub-zero temperatures.



Bernoulli principal tells us that the smaller the flash channel the faster the heat travels through it. The smaller the flash hole the higher the velocity of the flame when it hits the powder, the less pressure it exerts, and the hotter the flame. Thermodynamics tells us that less heat will be lost to the cold steel of the breech plug if there is less contact area.



Common sense would have us believe that enlarging the flash channel will help the heat reach the powder. Bernoulli' Principle shows us that this is incorrect; our intuition is wrong.

It seems that in the long breech plugs a 1/8" flash channel may be optimum. In the short breech plugs a 5/32" flash channel may be optimum.




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