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-   -   Mountaineer doesn't like Federal primers (https://www.huntingnet.com/forum/black-powder/348127-mountaineer-doesnt-like-federal-primers.html)

mountaineer magic 08-13-2011 04:25 PM
Mountaineer doesn't like Federal primers
 
Ran into a slight problem today .I was shooting 110 gr Blackhorn ,250 gr bullet and Federal primer .accuracy was good but after the third shot the primer wouldn't come out.I had to remove the bolt and take a small thin screwdriver to pry the primer out.it appeared the back of the primer was bulging enough to keep it from coming out.needless to say that after pulling the bolt after every shot for about 10 times I had enough. I have some Winchester primers,I guess I will have to see if that makes a difference. It made me miss the red plastic jackets.I never had a problem shaking them out.

Josmund 08-13-2011 04:37 PM
Chet,

These things are touchy. In my 45 Elite a Rem STS is perfect. Minimal or no blow back, drops right out when I tip it to the side.

I picked up a 50 Extreme and the STS is too tight and won't discharge. I tried CCI's today. They shot fine but the blowback was horrible. I'm not sure where to go next but neither of the above are acceptible.

MountainDevil54 08-13-2011 05:40 PM
you try the CCI Mags?

Gm54-120 08-13-2011 07:18 PM
In all my Lehigh conversions, the Win209 works best and even WinT7s worked fine. So whatever primer fits good with low blowby should ignite BH209 very well. Is the cup bulging and letting the anvil back out? This happens most to me if it isnt head spacing on the tight side and Win209s are the longest but a bit narrow. Plus they fit the Lehigh plug the best for me and headspace on the bottom..not the sides.

I dont know if the Mountaineer primer pocket dimensions are the same but i would try them.You can also dry fire it again and see if that helps. The Savage is known to require it sometimes because the anvil is backing out of the cup.

ronlaughlin 08-14-2011 04:00 AM
Hopefully the W209 will cure your issue. If you still have problems after trying the W209, bring the rifle with, the next time you come to town. We can do some testing, and measuring. Perhaps we can figure out the problem, and make a fix.

mountaineer magic 08-14-2011 05:18 AM
Originally Posted by ronlaughlin (Post 3834370)
Hopefully the W209 will cure your issue. If you still have problems after trying the W209, bring the rifle with, the next time you come to town. We can do some testing, and measuring. Perhaps we can figure out the problem, and make a fix.
Thanks. I should take a picture to make it easier to explain. The primer ejects from the breechplug when you open the bolt. It remains in the bolt where the lip of the primer slides down in the groove. It appears that where the firing pin hits and leaves the dimple deforms it enough that you can't get it out of the groove w . So I have to remove the bolt and pry it out by bending the lip of the primer up til I can get it out of the groove. I will take a picture later so as to make it more understandable. I will try some different primers later. Hopefully that will solve the problem

mountaineer magic 08-14-2011 05:22 AM
Originally Posted by Gm54-120 (Post 3834319)
In all my Lehigh conversions, the Win209 works best and even WinT7s worked fine. So whatever primer fits good with low blowby should ignite BH209 very well. Is the cup bulging and letting the anvil back out? This happens most to me if it isnt head spacing on the tight side and Win209s are the longest but a bit narrow. Plus they fit the Lehigh plug the best for me and headspace on the bottom..not the sides.

I dont know if the Mountaineer primer pocket dimensions are the same but i would try them.You can also dry fire it again and see if that helps. The Savage is known to require it sometimes because the anvil is backing out of the cup.
I will try dry firing it but I don't know if that would help as the primer comes out of the pocket when opening the bolt , just not out of the groove of the bolt.

ronlaughlin 08-14-2011 05:30 AM
Originally Posted by Gm54-120 (Post 3834319)
........................You can also dry fire it again and see if that helps.........................
Chet

It could be doing another dry hit on the primer may allow you to remove them without having to remove the bolt. Trying them W209 may also help. However, there does seem to be an issue. Making measurements on the primers before and after, may allow you to understand what the issue(s) are/is. You are welcome to use my tools, if necessary.

mountaineer magic 08-14-2011 05:46 AM
2 Attachment(s)
heres a couple photos. You can see where the primer slides in , after firing the primer appears to be deformed enough from the firing pin to not slide out

Gm54-120 08-14-2011 07:17 AM
Im only guessing but it appears the anvil is backing out of the cup. Either the head spacing is off with the Fed209 or the primer pocket is not supporting that area on the primer very well.

Like i mentioned this is pretty common on the Savage and most guys just fire it again to push the anvil back into the cup. Others do it "the right way" and mod the plug a bit deeper (for more support) and head space the primer.

A pic that would be very helpful is.....take out the breach plug and take pics of a couple of primers in the primer pocket of the plug. I would like to see if any of them sit deeper in the primer pocket. If a Win209 sits deeper in the plug than the Fed209, we know then it is likely hitting bottom and not stopping from pressure on the sides of the primer. The Win209 is longer but a bit more narrow (smaller OD) so that seems to be a logical conclusion.

Another thing i would like to see is...Does the new NFPJ bolt have a larger diameter firing pin than an older Knight bolt. Ive got a feeling they made the firing pin larger from some of the pics ive seen. My NULA leaves just a very small OD mark on the primer after firing and there is ZERO primer flow into the firing pin hole. This primer flow can make primer removal a PITA in a NFPJ setup. All of mine just fall out with Win209s in the Lehigh NFPJ and the anvils look fine even with max loads or a tad above.

ronlaughlin 08-14-2011 08:06 AM
Gm54-120 wrote, "Im only guessing but it appears the anvil is backing out of the cup. Either the head spacing is off with the Fed209 or the primer pocket is not supporting that area on the primer very well."

One thing i would do is measure the primer length. Install the primer in the rifle, and close the bolt. Remove the primer without firing it. Measure the primer length again. Myself, i like to see the primer measure around 0.003" shorter after it has been in the rifle. This helps keep the anvil from walking out of the cup when fired.

Hopefully, the W209 primer will fall right out after being fired. If not, i wonder if trying a metric o-ring might be something to think about.

Gm54-120 08-14-2011 09:53 AM
Ron, i do that too and just use a marker on the surfaces im checking. If the marked area is "blemished" i know im getting close and need to get out the micrometer and take better measurements. .003 sounds about right to me too and is about what i get in my Knights with a Win209.

Since Lehigh makes both plugs, i would bet the Win209 will work but the dedicated NFPJ bolt system is different than the conversions so its only a wild guess. I need more info for a better one. :D IMO if Knight made the firing pin larger then that was a huge mistake and will be a PITA to correct.

mountaineer magic 08-14-2011 10:34 AM
Originally Posted by Gm54-120 (Post 3834439)
Im only guessing but it appears the anvil is backing out of the cup. Either the head spacing is off with the Fed209 or the primer pocket is not supporting that area on the primer very well.

Like i mentioned this is pretty common on the Savage and most guys just fire it again to push the anvil back into the cup. Others do it "the right way" and mod the plug a bit deeper (for more support) and head space the primer.

A pic that would be very helpful is.....take out the breach plug and take pics of a couple of primers in the primer pocket of the plug. I would like to see if any of them sit deeper in the primer pocket. If a Win209 sits deeper in the plug than the Fed209, we know then it is likely hitting bottom and not stopping from pressure on the sides of the primer. The Win209 is longer but a bit more narrow (smaller OD) so that seems to be a logical conclusion.

Another thing i would like to see is...Does the new NFPJ bolt have a larger diameter firing pin than an older Knight bolt. Ive got a feeling they made the firing pin larger from some of the pics ive seen. My NULA leaves just a very small OD mark on the primer after firing and there is ZERO primer flow into the firing pin hole. This primer flow can make primer removal a PITA in a NFPJ setup. All of mine just fall out with Win209s in the Lehigh NFPJ and the anvils look fine even with max loads or a tad above.
I think you are right about firing it again . I believe that will solve the problem . I fired off a bunch of primers only, no load and they all fell out . The firing pin does looks quite big to me but I haven't actually compared it with any others.. I plan on taking it out in a little bit and seeing how it does.It sure shoots good though. I had a 3/4" group at 100 yards.the trigger feel is excellent and balance is great. I like the fit , feel and performance. I am sure the sicky primer will be solved here shortly. Thanks for the advice everyone.

mountaineer magic 08-14-2011 10:35 AM
Originally Posted by Gm54-120 (Post 3834439)
Im only guessing but it appears the anvil is backing out of the cup. Either the head spacing is off with the Fed209 or the primer pocket is not supporting that area on the primer very well.

Like i mentioned this is pretty common on the Savage and most guys just fire it again to push the anvil back into the cup. Others do it "the right way" and mod the plug a bit deeper (for more support) and head space the primer.

A pic that would be very helpful is.....take out the breach plug and take pics of a couple of primers in the primer pocket of the plug. I would like to see if any of them sit deeper in the primer pocket. If a Win209 sits deeper in the plug than the Fed209, we know then it is likely hitting bottom and not stopping from pressure on the sides of the primer. The Win209 is longer but a bit more narrow (smaller OD) so that seems to be a logical conclusion.

Another thing i would like to see is...Does the new NFPJ bolt have a larger diameter firing pin than an older Knight bolt. Ive got a feeling they made the firing pin larger from some of the pics ive seen. My NULA leaves just a very small OD mark on the primer after firing and there is ZERO primer flow into the firing pin hole. This primer flow can make primer removal a PITA in a NFPJ setup. All of mine just fall out with Win209s in the Lehigh NFPJ and the anvils look fine even with max loads or a tad above.
I think you are right about firing it again . I believe that will solve the problem . I fired off a bunch of primers only, no load and they all fell out . The firing pin does looks quite big to me but I haven't actually compared it with any others.. I plan on taking it out in a little bit and seeing how it does.It sure shoots good though. I had a 3/4" group at 100 yards.the trigger feel is excellent and balance is great. I like the fit , feel and performance. I am sure the sticky primer will be solved here shortly. Thanks for the advice everyone.


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