Chrony Results XTP Mag vs Deep Curl
 

Well I finally got a chance to do what I wanted to do for a long long time. Chorny my inline muzzleloader. All together it was 40 shots. 10 shots for each bullet with two different grains of BH209; 90 grains and 100 grains. I felt that it was not neccessary to up the powder since we all seem to agree that over 100ish grains don't give tighter groups. So here we go.

90 grains BH209 Speer 300 grain Deep Curl .233 BC
Avg Velocity was 1658fps
Dead on at 100 yards would result in 1401fps with 1307 ft lb
200 yards is a drop of 16.3 inches 1197fps with 954 ft lb

100 grains BH209 Speer 300 grain Deep Curl .233 BC
Avg Velocity was 1836fps
Dead on at 100 yards would result in 1553fps with 1607 ft lb
200 yards is a drop of 13.0 inches 1315fps with 1151 ft lb

Now XTP Mag

90 grains BH209 Hornady XTP Mag 300 grain .200 BC
Avg. Velocity was 1729
Dead on at 100 yards would result in 1421fps with 1345 ft lb
200 yards is a drop of 15.9 inches with 1184fps with 933 ft lb

100 grains BH209 Hornady XTP Mag 300 grain .200 BC
Avg Velocity was 1824
Dead on at 100 yards would result in 1500 fps with 1499 ft lb
200 yards is a drop of 14.1 inches with 1241fps with 1025 ft lb


So what does this tell me. I like the numbers of the 100 grain charges. There is really no difference between the bullets. A deer or elk ain't going to know the difference. The 100 grain charges of the two bullets are almost the same. I find it weird that there is a bigger difference at 90 grains. I will note though; i'm not fond of the MT Xtreme Bore Conditioner on a muzzleloader. I wiped by barrel with a dry patch before I shot so there was no more oil yet the first shot was at 897.3fps with 90 grains and DC bulllet. I threw this one out and started again. I've noticed that the last two times I shot. My Triumph never use to do that and the only difference was the Bore Conditioner. So I'm not using it anymore atleast on my muzzleloaders. As for grouping there was no bigger difference. The 100 grain charges were slightly better. My shoulder is sore as hell after 40 rounds. So I hope this helps some people out there. I never could find Chrony Results with a 300 grain bullet. I think I will now try some expansion test and see what happens. Then after that I will pick my bullet out of the two.

I will note that I was using W209 primers and swabbed the barrel between the 10 shots of each powder/bullet combo. No hang fires or delays.

Good report 50Cal. Those are impressive velocities for a 300 grain bullet.

Possibly not. But I would know. :wink: The Deep Curl is bonded and the XTP is not. I would go with the DC just because of that.

I share your lack of fondness for the bore conditioner. Tried it in two guns, both of which would shoot the first shot from a clean cold barrel into the same group as the next couple of shots. But when treated with the conditioner the first shot was always out of the group. Like you, I dry patched the bore before the first shot. Swabbing with alcohol might have solved the problem, but I didn't try that.

Great info.

Thanks for posting.

That was great information and I thank you for taking the beating... The velocity was surprising to say the least. That 300 grain moving that fast and with that kind of energy would devastate anything it hits.

Semisane.. I was not aware the Deep Curl were actually bonded. That is some good information. But on a deer it would make very little difference. At that energy and velocity you're going to blow through, and whether the bullet holds together a little better... if placed might not make all that much difference. A lot of deer have fallen to the XTP out of a muzzleloader.

With the bore conditioner issue. I too found that first shots when dry patched only were .. lets call them unsure. At first I blamed the powder, and then I tried to find anything else that might account for the first shot blues as I called them. So I started swabbing before shooting, with isopropyl alcohol and it seemed to make a difference with that first shot blues. All I will say about the product... the rifles do not seem to foul as bad, but again.. I do not shoot black horn 209. But when I can shoot Goex all day with out breaking down the rifle, cleaning, and then shooting, breaking down and then shooting, the Bore Conditioner must be making some difference.

Deep Curl bullets are a strange breed of bullet for me. The 250 and 300 grain in .452 seem to shoot real well. But I have some in .430 in 270 grain and some other strange grain.. that shoot excellent out to 75 yards. After that for some reason the group opens up big time.

Since I have had only 2 guns out of over 20 that shot best with most loads under 100 gr, I doubt your assumption that most do. It is my experience that 110 or 115 is usually the most accurate and around the peak of efficiency, not necessarily the most FPS per grain of powder but the most practical speed that co-exists with the best accuracy at long ranges. I have one gun that requires quite a bit more powder to consistently achieve a minute of angle [an Endeavor] and one [an Omega ] that is most accurate with 95 or 100 gr loads so there is not even a rule of thumb but it is my experience that the average would be 110 or a bit more .

I have a different opinion. Have you ever done the white sheet trick? Spread it out past the barrel and see how much unburnt powder comes out the barrel? The other question I have is what powder were you using? With blackhorn 100 grains would equal over 120 grains of Goex/Pyrodex. At 100 grains by Triumph is right at the border line of not burning powder. Bh209 is too expensive to have unburnt powder. Again every gun is different. And it seems that for the most part all of us are around the 100grain ish load. My first post I stated that it was around 100 not the max. So 110 may work for different guns. Mine just isn't burning all the powder. But if you look at the original sharps. 45-70 45-90 etc. There wasn't many that went over 100 grains and yet they dropped buffalo in there tracks. I personally feel that it is all marketing with MAGNUM loads etc. Also depends on the shooter. BH209 at the max 120 load feels like I'm shooting my 45-70 or .450 marlin. If a person can't handle the recoil they are going to shoot better groups with less charge. We are all different shooters and no two guns are the same. But like I said it seems that most of us are around the 100grain ish load. I don't think I've talked to someone that is using 120 load. If my Triumph would burn all 120 grains I would love it. Probably could get the 300 grain bullet over 2000fps. Which would be AMAZING. Then I question the part of the bullet. How far can we push a pistol bullet in velocity and have it stay intact and expand? Or would the velocity be soo great that it wouldn't expand and just go right through? It would be something to try and see what the limit is.

You really can't compare a cartridge like the 45/70 to a ML. The cartridge is much more efficient.

Trying to make a point on powder. Powder is Powder. I have never know anybody with any gun to have the Max powder. Whether BP or Smokeless. Cartridge or no cartridge. My Triumph will shot close groups with 90 or 100 grains. The difference is 1/4. My 1:70 Renegade shot best with 80 grains of pyro. My centerfires are abou the middle of the road on powder. Look at all the people that buy factory ammo. They are loaded on the low side maybe middle but most are low compared to a reloading manual. And most shoot a real nice group. Its a complete joke with magnum charges. Either you don't gain much velocity or your gun simply cannot burn all that powder.

I have tried the white sheet and have done the same on snow I collected burnt powder and tried to burn it. When you do this collect all the residue you can if it will not burn then you are looking at burnt powder. When you burn more powder you get more residue which does not imply that it is not burning when you load enough that you get a flare when you touch a match to it then its not an efficient load any more.

I could tell even with my Chrony. Luckly I had clear packing tape over the sensors like the instructions told me to. But there was unused powder. Could also be the primers too. W209 might not put off a hot enough flash to burn all the powder. Western powders doesn't list W209. I still have 400 primers though. I may try different primers when they are all gone. Just buy 100 as see what happens. But that probably wont happen till next year. Would be nice if a primer combo could burn all 120 grains of BH209 or atleast most and give over 2000fps with every shot. Hell that would be better then my .450 Marlin. If that happened I bet you could knock down a deer at 300 yards and have enough ft lbs.

50calty

I disagree with much of what you said about unburnt powder especially with BH-209.

BH-209 does emitt alot of black looking carbon after being shot, but it is not un-burnt powder. BH is a dirty buring powder it just does not leave it in the barrel... These results on the snow or the white sheet have been noted by others also.

I shoot 120 grain loads of BH or even T7 and get the powder burnt. You can verify this by continuing to shoot it through your chronograph. When you reach the law of diminishing returns your chrono will tell you.

My best results with a Gold Dot/Deep Curls is with a load of 110 to 120 grains...

Here is chart that shows the steady increase in velocity using much more that 100 grains of T7 or BH...

This is a comparison chart shooting a 45 cal rifle...



And this one is a incomplete 50 cal chart



I thought I had a picture of the dusting on the snow that BH does but I can not find it. I have collected the material and tried to re-ignite it - it is no go...

If you look at the charts you can see the velocity continues to rise as you add powder.

Primers... changing primers really does not have a lot of effect on the velocities that BH will earn for you - already tried that. It does change POI a bit but I can not even prove that it really effect group size that much.

Here is a target shot with different primers...

I'm not denying the increase of velocity with the increase of powder. But my chrony was collecting unburnt powder. Luckly I had clear tape over the sensors. Thats why I'm wondering if the W209 primer isn't hot enough to burn all the powder. I'm sure your report is accurate and you didn't use W209. You used two of the hotest primers CCI and Federal. The two that Blackhorn recommends. Maybe in the next week or two I can get back out and chrony 110 grains and 120 grains with both bullets. Keep shooting like I have been I'll be out of powder and bullets!

Next time you get a chance collect some of that black material that you find on your chrono, white sheet, or snow. Take it home and look at it closely with a mag glass - you will see that it no way resembles a BH-209 grain. It is burnt carbon being ejected out the barrel.

And the only reason I used them was to show that primer heat or power really does not reflect an increase in velocity or an increase in the ability of the powder to burn and create more pressure. I normally shoot a W209 as my base primer. If you look you will see that I even shot BH with a Remington 209-4 which is a primer that Remington use to make for the 410 shotgun, probably the weakest 209 made.

been there done that one also... that is exactly why I do not shoot BH-209 - to expensive for me.

mike

My three best shooting loads in a 20" 54cal and 300gr+ bullets all shoot best with 110gr to 120gr. The 2 best with 120gr. I really didnt want to try more. I dont know if it was burning it all but the groups did tighten up from 110-120gr on the 2 best loads.

In my 45s and 50s and longer barrels they usually topped out at 110gr or an occasional 115gr. I haven't tried BH209 in my Savage yet so that might change with a heavier bullet.

Ive also used almost nothing but Win209s and even shot some great groups with WinT7s with heavy loads. Im not so sure a mag primer is always needed depending on your breach plug and primer fit.

What amazes me is the 90 gr charge and the XTPs being avg of 71 fps faster than the deep curls , yet at 100 grs the XTPs are 12 fps slower!
And the difference the 10 gr makes is 178 fps for the Deep Curl and only 95 fps difference with the XTPs.
Good info.

Yeah that shocked me also at 90 gr. Didn't think that was possible. Just shows the the bullets are ALMOST identical. Yet with the better BC on the deep curl it drops less and retains more energy. Not much but it something to take note on.

I really enjoyed the article 50Calty and don't wish to trade you places for firing that many round in one day with 300grn rounds even though it was only 100grns of powder.

SabotLoader, GREAT data collection and results, not to mention groups!!!!!!

I shoot a Knight Disc Extreme and here in So. Il the biggest thing I get to try it out on is deer and once in a while I go to KY or TN and shoot hogs with it. My pet load it with 105grn of T7 3f with 240 SST's. The 300's won't open up. 50 cal in and out unless I shoulder shot it.
You guys that have the time and determination (and lots of ice and Tylenol) to do the testing that you do sure save many of us time and resources. If nothing else, something to look at and make a half arsed plan to whether or not we are going to try it. I just got lucky and found my load real quick and can interchange Plat. Tips with my SST's and keep all rounds inside 6" at 200yds till I get tired of shooting. I shoot a .338 Lapua for work so I know what recoil is. Outside of using a LeadSled, it is not fun.
Thanks for a great article and keep up the research so the rest of us have a guide line to work with.