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-   -   Large Rifle Primer (https://www.huntingnet.com/forum/black-powder/344884-large-rifle-primer.html)

ronlaughlin 05-21-2011 12:23 PM

Large Rifle Primer
 
A few of the shooters on the now 'defunct' forum, seemed to think that rifle primers are better than shotgun primers. They wrote that the rifle primers burn cleaner, and are more consistent. Since it has been like monsoon season around here, i allowed myself to try and utilize the small rifle primer. This gave me something to do out of the weather, and wasn't like doing chores. All my endeavors to use the small rifle primer, failed to ignite BH209 reliably. Everything i did resulted in hang fire, and no fire. I used the VariFlame, and the 25acp case, which were failures. I finally ended up with the powder right at the base of the primer; this failed, and also showed lots of blow by and pressure.

Had the monsoons ended, i would have quit trying to make rifle primers ignite BH209. Shotgun primers work just fine for me. The past 2 days saw us receive about 1/4 of our average annual moisture. Thus work on utilizing rifle primer continued, but with a change to large rifle primers.

Mountainam suggested modifying 223 brass to utilize large rifle primer. This is what i did.



Then to carry the 223 brass i made a breech plug with a big hole on both ends. The hex head for the wrench was made 13mm, because this is the largest socket that will fit into the barrel.











This morning i headed for the hills to give this work a try. The load was 270g Deep Curl in a Harvester sabot, pushed by 115g BH209, ignited by CCI large rifle magnum primer in the modified 223 brass. One of the primers didn't ignite; i think it was because of contamination by cutting oil. The second shot is the one that left the target, and went low. I am thinking that is probably my fault, but i didn't call it. Range was 201 yard.













No flame channel carbon to deal with, um, no flame channel.


Omega45 05-21-2011 01:37 PM

Thats excellent 200yd Drivers Seat Window Rest Shooting! :D

I am glad you finally made it work.

Gm54-120 05-21-2011 02:11 PM

The mod looks promising and the fired cases look good. I don't see any primer flow either which is common on hot loads with 209s in many guns. It kind of makes me wonder when i see primers that look like they are on the verge of failure, so its a pet peeve of mine from reloading.

Steel 223/5.56 cases are usually discarded and might work well also. The are usually Berdan primed but removal shouldn't be that big of an issue if you are modding the primer pocket anyway. They may or may not offer an advantage once modified but its a thought.

Another thought.
Is there enough case length left to make them a tad shorter and add a bit more steel to the plug.....maybe 1/4". The powder shouldn't be much further away but "flash channel/case volume" should be reduced but also add a bit more "meat" to the plug above the vent. It could probably be tested with a single thicker white nylon washer in the case pocket for a couple of shots just to test the theory.

Just out of curiosity, can you fill the powder pocket with BH209 and weigh the amount it takes to fill it or get a rough volumetric equivalent. And is that the standard Savage type OD vent or a smaller OD one you made?

BTW nice shooting too. :D

ronlaughlin 05-21-2011 03:18 PM


Originally Posted by Gm54-120 (Post 3810560)
...............................Is there enough case length left to make them a tad shorter and add a bit more steel to the plug.....maybe 1/4". The powder shouldn't be much further away but "flash channel/case volume" should be reduced but also add a bit more "meat" to the plug above the vent. It could probably be tested with a single thicker white nylon washer in the case pocket for a couple of shots just to test the theory.

Just out of curiosity, can you fill the powder pocket with BH209 and weigh the amount it takes to fill it or get a rough volumetric equivalent. And is that the standard Savage type OD vent or a smaller OD one you made?......................

The case can easily be made shorter. However if one is going to be able to use a case trimmer to establish the finish length of the case, it cannot. Reason; the added length of the case is necessary to accommodate the pilot of the case trimmer. These brass i finished to length by using the lathe. I kinda had hoped that i could do this in the future by using a standard case trimmer.

The powder pocket holds about 5 1/2 g volume of BH209. The vent liner head, has been turned down to 5/16" from the standard 3/8". I started doing this last winter, when i noticed instantaneous ignition in sub-zero temperatures whilst using a modified QRBP, that had a 5/16" vent liner installed. This i did because i was trying to understand why just adding a powder pocket to a bad breech plug makes it good to work with BH209.

The primers in them 223 brass show zero sign of pressure. Totally unlike what this STS shotgun primer shows with the exact same load.



The shotgun primer shows quite a lot of flow into the space in the bushing around the firing pin, and the slot in the bushing for a screwdriver. It could be the huge 'flame channel' makes this happen, or is it the fact that the 223 case is what establishes the head space when in use, not the rifle primer. When the shotgun primer is used for ignition, the primer itself is what establishes the head space.

bronko22000 05-21-2011 03:56 PM

Ron - that is a real interesting endeavor you started there. Nice job.You better get a patent on that idea before someone grab it up. Also, have you tried keeping the primer pocket as a small rifle and using small rifle magnum primers?

ronlaughlin 05-21-2011 06:07 PM


Originally Posted by bronko22000 (Post 3810567)
..........................Also, have you tried keeping the primer pocket as a small rifle and using small rifle magnum primers?

No, but it can be done easy enough. Perhaps tomorrow. I don't think small rifle magnums will work though.

builder459 05-21-2011 06:09 PM

Good work and write up as usual Ron....... .Ray

cayugad 05-22-2011 04:56 AM

very interesting.. and nice shooting

ronlaughlin 05-22-2011 04:20 PM


Originally Posted by bronko22000 (Post 3810567)
..............................have you tried keeping the primer pocket as a small rifle and using small rifle magnum primers?

Tried small rifle magnum primers 3 shots this morning. All were hang fire.

Accuracy was pretty good though. Range was 199 yard. The 3 holes in the top bull were made by 260g Harvester PT bullet in a short black Harvester sabot, pushed by 120g BH209, ignited by CCI small rifle magnum primer.


ShawnT 05-24-2011 03:12 PM

Hey Ron,

I just found my way over here since MML is down.

Good looking cases and plug. That is the same primer is use in the Speer 38 plastic cases for the MK95. The CCI mag primers were the recommended primer for MK95 by Knight. I never really had good luck with the small rifle primers use 38 spl cases, either. I don't think they have quite the heat and flame needed.

Shawnt


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