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Originally Posted by HEAD0001 (Post 3806392)

The point I iwas trying to make was with the charcoal. According to what I understand(which is limited), charcoal is a necessary ingredient of BlackPowder?? And it is the charcoal that causes the "Smoke" in blackpowder?? Correct??

In real Black Powder Charcoal is a necessary ingedient to make the powder work.

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Black Powder Ingredient Charcoal:
Charcoal is the fuel used in the making of black powder, it's portion of the mix is 15% by weight. To make a good black powder you have to use a good charcoal. There are differences in wood types and charring temperatures to produce good charcoal.
Wood Selection:
Below you will see a list of wood types, these are listed numerically as to the quality of black powder they will produce when charred properly.
(1) Willow
(2) Birch
(3) Fir
(4) Oak
(5) Beech
(6) Ash
Note: All the above wood types listed, when charred properly and then used as a fuel for black powder will produce an excellent quality black powder.
Charring Time:
The charring time has little influence on the carbon concentration of charcoal.
Charring Temperature:
The charring temperature is very important to the carbon concentration of charcoal. For black powder purposes wood should not be charred at more than 800°F. Charred at higher temperatures it looses flammability. Charcoals like those used for barbecuing are not suitable for making black powder.
Most of the charcoals that are used for the making of black powder are charred at 750 °F. Brown charcoal, looks brownish in color is charred between 500°F and 700°F, it's very flammable and excellent for making black powder.

One of the by-products of shooting real BP and further buring the charcoal at a very high temperature is SMOKE.

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So if the sub's do not require charcol. And charcol is only added to make smoke appear. But that smoke is totally unnecessary for the actual combustion of the powder. Then the charcoal is only added for effect. So therefore the powder that adds charcoal for "effect" only should be listed as "smokeless Powder". Since the smoke is NOT necessary for combustion.

And most BP subs are listed exactly that way via Government regulations. That is why they have less stringent storage rules. You ca n buy subs at your local grocery store - not so real BP.

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So basically these advanced powders are a less powerful smokelss powder.

I am not sure they are less powerful is the total reason... These powders produced to be bulky and with limited power so that that can be metered like a regular black powder.

Smokeless really does not have any thing to do with the classification, more it is what the powder is made of. The modern smokeless powders that we normally think of are Nitrocellous based powders. BH is the only sub that falls in that realm, none of the other BP subs are using Nitrocellouse for ignition.

It kinda started here...

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Henri Braconnot discovered in 1832 that nitric acid, when combined with starch or wood fibers, would produce a lightweight combustible explosive material, which he named xyloïdine. A few years later in 1838 another French chemist Théophile-Jules Pelouze (teacher of Ascanio Sobrero and Alfred Nobel) treated paper and cardboard in the same way. He obtained a similar material he called nitramidine. Both of these substances were highly unstable, and were not practical explosives.

Guncotton remained of limited use. For firearms, a more stable and slower burning mixture was needed. Guncotton-like preparations were eventually prepared for this role, known at the time as smokeless powder. The first practical smokeless powder made from nitrocellulose, for firearms and artillery ammunition, was invented by French chemist Paul Vieille in 1884.

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And therefore SHOULD NOT be considered as a sub. For Black Powder(Since smoke is a required effect of blackpowder). These powders should be considered as low power subs. for smokeless powder. But definitely not as a sub for BL since the charcoal is not a "necessary" ingredient for combustion.

Here is the definition of a 'Black Powder Sub'

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Black powder substitute
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A black powder substitute is a replacement for black powder used in muzzleloading and cartridge firearms. Black powder substitutes offer a number of advantages over black powder, primarily including reduced sensitivity, reduced fouling, and increased efficiency. Due to property insurance and federal transportation regulations, black powder substitutes also can be transported and stored in interstate commerce in the United States using smokeless powder regulations, instead of the much more restrictive black powder regulations. Because of this, black powder substitutes are thus becoming more commonly available than traditional black powder, which has largely vanished from the shelves of most retailers.

[quote]I think these powder mfgs. are just trying to skirt around laws of states that do not allow smokeless powder in MZ's. But why else should the powder smoke. If not for "effect" only.[quote]

But somewhere these laws that you speak of - really rules not laws created by DNR or Fish and Game Departments are were meant to implie eveyone's normal conception that a smokeless powder was a 'Nitrocellouse Powder'. Some states have even changed their rules to now say 'Nitrocellouse' powder and are now basing there rules on the definition of a BP substitute because it is safer and for marketing reasons. Actually most states have changed the rulings to go be the sub definition that is exactly why BH is legal in most states - much to the disappointment of a lot of people.

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I realize this is just for discussion. But from what you other guys are saying. You could just as easily use a powder like Trail Boss as a sub also. Except it does not smoke?? Just an opinion. Tom.

BUT, Trail Boss is a Nitrocellouse Powder... and does not meet the definition of a BP sub. Another powder for you to look up Tom, is IMR 4759. It is a powder that looks exactly like BH-209. It is created to be bulky as BH is, and it is Nitrocellous also just like BH is... BUT - but it is not produced to meter or act as a BP sub - so therefore it does not qualify as a BP sub nor is it advertised as a BP sub. It then does not qualify.

And you are right - discussion topic ony - nothing about right or wrong or anybodies personal feelings...