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Triple 7 revisited
I set off today to use up some Triple 7 2F in the TC Pro Hunter w/ .45 Bergara barrel. Here was some things I noticed today. Crud ring was really not that bad. I do not know if its because I have used no teflon products in this bore or if its because I always use Montana X-Treme Bore conditioner. I used Sabotloaders Windex patches but I did run one dry one after the Windex patch just to make sure the bore was dry. I left the gun broke up while I swabbed so I could hear the air flowing through the flash hole also. Here is a few 100yd targets from this morning with 100gr T7 2F and CCI primers. Harvester light blue sabots were used. Shooting was done off a Bulls bag front rest and Caldwell rear rest. I have been leaving the Lead Sled in the back of the truck lately. I'll probably break it back out for some 120gr loads out of the Green Mtn 54-120 soon. :D
  OK, I had to shoot some Blackhorn 209 too.... :D:D 100gr BH209, Fed209A primer, 200gr SST in light blue Harvester sabot. 100yds  It was brought up by someone that break open muzzleloaders will never compete with bolt action muzzleloaders. I guess I will have to wait until my .45 Elite is complete to find out. I did find a shop that carries Swiss and that is the next powder on my list to test. |
I use windex/alcohol and the dry patch isn't needed, since the alcohol makes it dry immediately. Ray
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Originally Posted by Omega45
(Post 3798485)
It was brought up by someone that break open muzzleloaders will never compete with bolt action muzzleloaders. I guess I will have to wait until my .45 Elite is complete to find out. I did find a shop that carries Swiss and that is the next powder on my list to test.
I am one that makes that very statement - but it needs to be qualified by so saying "over a lengthly period of time" Usually most break opens will shoot great when they are new, but over a long period of time, such as a lifetime gun, wear and tear takes it's toll on the hinge and the lock-up mechanism... the differences will begin to appear. Excellent shooting by the way also.... I am packing right now headed to the Tri-Cities area (Washington) - got a rondy shoot this week end so I will get to do some shooting there. Plus Washatonian and I will try to put some holes in paper or blow up some clay pigeons on Saturday after noon... |
how bout break actions that see thousands of rounds each year and still shoot one hole groups?
Theres no proof that a break action is less accurate than a bolt action muzzle loader. And lets face it, the average shooters is lucky to see 100 shots in a year. |
Originally Posted by MountainDevil54
(Post 3798492)
how bout break actions that see thousands of rounds each year and still shoot one hole groups?
Theres no proof that a break action is less accurate than a bolt action muzzle loader. And lets face it, the average shooters is lucky to see 100 shots in a year. |
My other Pro Hunter with blued frame has my .50 Bergara barrel on it and it's a tack driver at 100yds. It's had alot of rounds through it over the years. I use TC adjustable hinge pins in my Pro Hunters so there is no slop. This new stainless Pro Hunter may have 50-60 shots through it. Finding the right combo is the key to making any gun shoot IMO.
Here is the gun on the Mike Bellm TC's Bergara Accuracy page if anyone is interested in looking. http://www.bellmtcs.com/store/index.php?cid=469 |
On average I believe a bolt action MZ will shoot better than a break action MZ. Sure there will be some that wil overlap. But in general I believe the bolt action will do slightly better. Same as with Center Fire rounds. The bolt there will also be a bit more accurate than the break action. It is simple. The bolt action is stronger. That is not knocking a break action, but it is the way it is.
I really like my Encore CF's. But none of them(including custom barreled ones) are as accurate as my bolt actions in general. I have seen many people have problems getting a break action MZ to shoot accurately. I have never seeen any accuracy problems with bolt action MZ's. But then I have seen limited amounts of bolt action MZ's. Most of the ones I have seen have been Knight's. And most Knight's just flat out shoot. But I have also shot some of the Remington and even the Ruger bolt action MZ's, and the few of those I have experience with are also pretty good shooters. One last thing. I have been shooting MZ's for over 40 years. To this date I have never seen any MZ of any form shoot a one hole group as stated above. Tom. |
finding the right load is what makes an inaccurate muzzleloader an accurate muzzle loader. Not weather or not it has a bolt behind it.
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Here is what I consider a one hole group. Ones interpretation of a one hole group may vary. This was shot with my .50 Bergara Encore barrel at 100yds. I see it as "one hole" at 100yds in the target. I shoot all brands of inline muzzleloaders, I am not a one gun brand kinda guy. :D
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Nope i can clearly see the space between the shots.
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See everyones interpretation of a one hole group is different. :confused0024:
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LOL true. But one hell of a group either way you look at it.
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That break vs bolt was one I disagreed with also. Sabotloader and Grouse i would put up my Ruger No 1(Dad gave it to me not sure how old but old) against any bolt gun they have. I also know our military snipers only use bolts but I wonder if its more a less things go wrong issue. But I will say they shoot a hell of alot more than most so if they must have found that to be true. Why is it the break action hinge pins wear out?
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The Ruger #1 is another example of a tack driving break action rifle. i also have friends who have owned them for many years and still drive tacks.there are a few center fire break actions that don't shoot worth a dam out of the box. but that's poor workmanship and design and not a product of the break action.the Barret .50 cal is a semi auto and darn accurate also.it would take a awful sloppy hinge pin to change POI on a consistent basis.Ray
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Ahhh, Ruger #1 is a falling block action, not a hinge gun. You know, like a Winchester High Wall.
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The more you take the barrel off the TC Encore / Pro Hunter frame the looser the fit will be from my experience. Could be the hinge pin from tapping it in and out getting smaller or the hole in the frame getting bigger. The TC adjustable hinge pin lets you easily put the pin in and just tighten the allen screw which opens the pin up for a snug fit.
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Actually, the Ruger #1 is not a "break action" but a "falling block" or "drop action".
The difference is that a break action has a hinge pin allowing the barrel to break open to expose the breech. If the hinge mechanism becomes loose on a break action it affects rigidity of the barrel/stock unit. On the Ruger and on similar falling block designs such as the TC Omega and my favorite cartridge rifles - the Browning single shots, the barrel/stock is always a rigid unit. (I have a Browning B-78 in 25-06 and an 1885 in 45-70 - both tack drivers). |
Originally Posted by jaybez101099
(Post 3798546)
That break vs bolt was one I disagreed with also. Sabotloader and Grouse i would put up my Ruger No 1(Dad gave it to me not sure how old but old) against any bolt gun they have. I also know our military snipers only use bolts but I wonder if its more a less things go wrong issue. But I will say they shoot a hell of alot more than most so if they must have found that to be true. Why is it the break action hinge pins wear out?
Has anyone ever wondered why T/C made two break open Muzzleloaders? The reason was the Encore/Pro-Hunter/Endeavor design was horrible. They also new they could not change it because of all the differnet barrels offered. All you need to do is ask http://www.bellmtcs.com/store/index.php?cid=469 This guy made a fortune with hinge pins. So did Cecil Epps. I have always said the Encore was a great ML. But it needed to be tweeked first. Working up a load has nothing to do with it. Make the gun right, finding a load is easy. That is why the Triumph was made. And the Triumph is designed alot better and does not need tweeked out of the box. If you talk to the right people at T/C, they will tell you not to buy an Encore over a Triumph if you want a ML only. It's obvious to anyone that own both. The Triumph is a tack driver no doubt. I cant honestly say how long it will stay that way. It sure will last alot longer then an Encore. The bolt action ML has less moving parts and obviously locked up tighter then a break action. Which in the long run means more accurate over time. Like someone mentioned above, for most people it doesnt matter. They wont shoot enough to see a difference. And the break actions are shorter and lighter and alot easier to carry and carry on a quad. That's a big reason why they are so popular. I actually hope Knight makes a high quality break open. I think the demand is more for them then bolt action guns today. But if i could only own one, it would be a bolt action. |
Grouse the Knight Vision is a break action. How do you think that break compares to T/C's..CVA's? Does it lock up better? What would you change if any on the Vision break system.
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Originally Posted by jaybez101099
(Post 3798636)
Grouse the Knight Vision is a break action. How do you think that break compares to T/C's..CVA's? Does it lock up better? What would you change if any on the Vision break system.
The length of pull is two long. I had both cut and added new recoil pads. The other problem or complaint i will say is the trigger. It needs to have an adjustable one piece trigger. For the most part that's it. Like an Encore it needs tweaked. I prefer the Triumph over the Vision. I prefer the Vision over the Encore and the Accura. And if you look at cost, the Vision beats them all pretty easily. |
yeah but you get all the stuff you just complained about LOL.
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Originally Posted by MountainDevil54
(Post 3798643)
yeah but you get all the stuff you just complained about LOL.
And like you said most would never know and I might mention 100 yard and under not sure if you would ever see the difference, especially in the hunting accuracy range. Bit it still comes down it is just my preference and I believe most competitive shooters to have a solid barrel action... Even a two piece stock has some problems in my mind. |
Originally Posted by MountainDevil54
(Post 3798643)
yeah but you get all the stuff you just complained about LOL.
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To me a one hole group is a five shot group that measures the diameter of one bullet. But let's not digress here. I can go along with a one hole group being a group where all five shots are connected into one wallered out larger hole. Or even where all three shots are connected in a wallered out hole.
And the best part is I am a betting man. I would put up $500 to anybody's $250 or make the bet larger if you would like that you can not shoot a one hole group at 100 yards. And I will stand by that bet anytime you want that bet with a production grade MZ of any make or action. And I am willing to back that bet up any day anyone wants to try. You pick the day, but bring your cash, I will bring my cash, and the winner walks away with all the money. And I am sure I will be walking away with the money. SHHEEESSSSHHHHH. One hole groups with an MZ?? What's next?? This internet accuracy stuff is just unbelievable. Tom. |
Three shots touching is not a safe bet. A one hole group is a good bet though.
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I'm going to have to agree with Grouse on the Encore verse Triumph. I had both and got rid of the Encore. Triumph is the better muzzleloader hands down. The nice thing about TC is that if the break action gets too lose they replace the rife for free. Love the lifetime warrenty.
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one hole groups are easy. Take careful aim on the first shot, then aim over the target for the next 2 ;)
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Facts are, how often do you see a one hole group with a center fire rifle? watching the snipers on military channel last night and they didn't even have what you all here are saying is one hole groups lol. a M/L or centerfire with 3 or 5 shots all touching at a 100 yds is fantastic shooting. Ray
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Originally Posted by builder459
(Post 3798710)
Facts are, how often do you see a one hole group with a center fire rifle? watching the snipers on military channel last night and they didn't even have what you all here are saying is one hole groups lol. a M/L or centerfire with 3 or 5 shots all touching at a 100 yds is fantastic shooting. Ray
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Originally Posted by Grouse45
(Post 3798569)
I'm very happy to hear Your Dad's Ruger is very accurate. Nothing better then a accurate reliable gun.
Has anyone ever wondered why T/C made two break open Muzzleloaders? The reason was the Encore/Pro-Hunter/Endeavor design was horrible. They also new they could not change it because of all the differnet barrels offered. All you need to do is ask http://www.bellmtcs.com/store/index.php?cid=469 This guy made a fortune with hinge pins. So did Cecil Epps. I have always said the Encore was a great ML. But it needed to be tweeked first. Working up a load has nothing to do with it. Make the gun right, finding a load is easy. That is why the Triumph was made. And the Triumph is designed alot better and does not need tweeked out of the box. If you talk to the right people at T/C, they will tell you not to buy an Encore over a Triumph if you want a ML only. It's obvious to anyone that own both. The Triumph is a tack driver no doubt. I cant honestly say how long it will stay that way. It sure will last alot longer then an Encore. The bolt action ML has less moving parts and obviously locked up tighter then a break action. Which in the long run means more accurate over time. Like someone mentioned above, for most people it doesn't matter. They wont shoot enough to see a difference. And the break actions are shorter and lighter and alot easier to carry and carry on a quad. That's a big reason why they are so popular. I actually hope Knight makes a high quality break open. I think the demand is more for them then bolt action guns today. But if i could only own one, it would be a bolt action. |
Originally Posted by Omega45
(Post 3798711)
Not according to HEAD0001. :rolleye0011::rolleye0011:
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