Knight Rifles does it first.
 

After talking with Lehigh a couple weeks ago, the new Mountaineer will be able to shoot all the BP subs on the market today right out of the box. http://www.knightrifles.com/mountaineer-guns/ And yes that includes BH209.

And Knight is also offering a breech plug for Extremes, Elites, and Long Range Hunters that will reliably shoot BH209 and other BP subs.
http://www.knightrifles.com/209-conv...-plug-M900044/

Knight Rifles is definitely headed in the right direction there first year back.

I forgot to mention the best Range Rod/Cleaning rod i have ever used by far.
http://www.knightrifles.com/ultimate-range-rod-M900081/

boy... and i get accused for product promotion :D

I at least agree with your range rod tom, love mine. No flexy issues or anything.

its good to see knight staying on top of the game because this is what shotters want news and best qualty are will buy someone elses product

Glad to see knight is doing something positive with there products.bad news T/C's already shoot BH 209 reliably with proper maintenance right from the box, which Knights BP'S will also require.always good to see USA made products leading the way:happy0001:Ray

builder459

You might be surprised how little maintenance a Lehigh BP needs to be problem free. I know for sure of at least 2 50 shot strings without a hiccup and the channel still had a ton of room left. I haven't had even the slightest hang fire yet without a mag primer too.

GM, i wouldn't be surprised at all. first time out with the Triumph, 30 rounds ran a drill bit through it afterwards and didn't get any carbon out with it. soaked it in windex and vinegar and it was clean as a whistle.i am happy to see knight doing what they have to do to make there BP's work with all subs.even CVA is wising up although my understanding is there new BP won't come standard with there rifles, which IMHO is a mistake! point i was making to grouse was Knight wasn't the first. Ray

In a way they did a first.

Ive yet to see one erode past specs including the primer pocket flame cutting. Plus if its a true Lehigh you just replace vent but that production run appears to be ending soon. :D

While I do like Knight rifles I have to say all my TC's never misfired with BH209. If you look at Westerns newly designed V2 plug it appears to be based on an Omega plug, a plug that Western Powders really likes for igniting BH209. I would say Knight, well Lehigh, made a breech plug that is capable of firing all the powders but to say they are the first?

I think the "first" comment is based on that they made it specifically to function with BH209. BH209 was the main reason for the design from day one. T/C Omega type plugs are very good but they were not designed around BH209. They just happened to work well from the start. The Lehigh/Knight plug was designed around BH209 and we tested it very well when only Lehigh offered them. Ive even burned 2 boxes of WinT7 primers just to prove how well it works with BH209. I wonder how well the T/C plug would work with the same primer? It should work fine but ive never seen any reports.

The original test bed for BH209 was actually the Savage breach plug. Technically they were the first but still require more maintenance than the Lehigh. ;)

BTW i would expect another first to be coming if the rumors are true...and its pretty damn nice from the talks ive had. AND NO DO NOT PM me for what it is.

MountainDevil54

BTW its not that you promote a product and it never was. Its the unwavering bias you display here because of freebies/compensation and with all your "ad like" photos and "Infomercial type" videos. Statements like "A CVA will do anything a White or Knight will do" is ridiculous. Even i wouldn't say my Knights would compete in EVERY way with a White. They might compete well but not quite as well if you want to shoot huge conicals in 45 or 50cal.

Even i will recommend a CVA if that is what the OP wants. Ive never said get a Knight instead if the OP ONLY wanted opinions on which CVA to buy. I like the new Optima best in their lineup actually or if they offered a 45cal Wolf i would likely buy one in a blink.

I cant say ive seen you break from tradition and recommend another brand over a CVA or favor another brand over any CVA product. You even tried/trying to sell the Lyman Great Plains rifle even though its is superior over the Mountain stalker in quality. I know its hard when Dudley sent you atleast two CVAs for free according to your own words.

Please correct me or prove my statement wrong and i will recant it.

Awww c'mon, Gm. You can tell us, we PROMISE we will keep it a secret! Lol. :wink:

You are going to have to wait and see just like me. :D

I can say Fiocchi primers I have seen tested are milder then T7 primers and I have used them to ignite BH209 and a friend uses them exclusively. I have about 30 T7 primers left and when the .45 Omega makes its next range trip I will use some. I plan on buying no more T7 primers as I have found they are dirty and do nothing to help with the crud ring anyway when using T7...........and they cost twice as much as regular primers. :D Even if T7 primers functioned flawlessly in my gun I would still use a full strength primer for hunting for the added ignition security. That goes for any inline I have in the safe. Western Powders recommends a full strength primer anyway so why take the chance. Range work is one thing testing a plug out with mild primers but sitting with a loaded gun in sub freezing temps for hours is different then load and fire.

The way I see it TC was ahead of their time with the Omega plug and did not need to redesign a new one for BH209. :biggrin:

Title of post is misleading. Most of us already know the Lehigh plug was designed for BH209 and Knight DISC based rifles before Knight had new owners.

BTW: $70.00 for a rangerod? $70.00 buys alot of bullets and sabots IMO. I have no problem using the supplied rods with a Spinjag or RATT Jag for loading. Just my .02 on the rod. If it was priced within reason I would purchase one though.

I bought one of the rods. I doubt they could sell for too much less and be profitable. They really are that nice for the range. They are overpriced and IMO a lower price could increase sales volume to increase the profits. Many of us were not happy with the price.

I only used the WinT7s to prove a point and in my Lehigh plug they were not dirty at all. Even the channel was pretty clean after 50 shots in 2 guns. You've seen the pics. I don't use them for hunting either, i use almost all Win209s and if its really cold i use the Feds.

The post is not misleading at all. I dont consider a ML BH209 compatible if you do certain steps to make it so. I want to take it right out of the box and do normal maintenance and have a reliable ML. The Triumph failed miserably with many witnesses in Kentucky.

The Triumph is an Awesome ML. I just wont trust it with BH209 and a factory plug. The last thing i need is a delay.

As far as the rod, i was hoping it would sale for $59.99. I think when it's in sporting good stores it will. But still at $75.00 bucks it's way better then anything i have seen on the market.

The Knight Disc Elite was one of the most accurate Muzzleloaders ever made right out of the box. The new Mountaineer i believe will follow right in it's foot steps with some improvements. That's hard to believe but true.

There are a few of us pushing Knight to make some barrel twist changes and offer a 45cal Mountaineer. It all takes time and i havent heard them say no yet.:kiss:

Designed or not,T/C BP's work excellent with BH209.the Lehigh design is excellent also.the triumph BP will work flawlessly from the factory with BH209 and proper cleaning. which as i stated earlier is required with any BP using BH209.again Knight is on the right track with offering the Lehigh BP. Ray.

Myself, i have tried the 777 primer in my TC rifle, and also in my CVA rifle when using BH. I experienced poor ignition, and do not recommend their use, to ignite BH. I do not use them at all, unless i happen to be testing 777 powder. I don't use magnum primer, and i have zero issues igniting BH in any of my rifles. However, i would never advise the use of the 777 primer to ignite BH.

I think what Grouse might have said in a different manner is that Knight is the first company to bring a rifle to the market place that the breech plug was designed and tested to shoot BH-209 reliably and for extended periods of time without maintenance.

Ray, as for the TC plugs, the Omega and Triumph plugs will shoot BH reliably out of the box, however, they will not do that over an extended period of time without drilling the plug out at some interval.

Western believes the Omega plug to be the best BH factory plug on the market (at the time), but in their estimation the Triumph plug is borderline in the long run. They would prefer that it were re-designed also and in fact have contacted other people about that possibility.

The Rod, I hate the cost of the rod, but once you have and use it, the cost becomes one-of-those-things you somehow ignore. If you are an occasional shooter you would probably have no need of the rod...

ronlaughlin

I don't recommend them either but the fact is that they worked flawlessly in temps from 30ish-70F in the Lehigh designed plug and even in some you made for me. These are not common hunting temps for a large part the country but in Missouri they are common some years.

I only did it to push the limits of the plug design with bullets from 180gr to 385gr in three different calibers. Not one had an issue or excessive carbon build up. Fiochii primers will not fit my Lehigh or i would have tried them too. They worked fine in the modded CVA plug also.

I have a Triumph. Zero issues with BH209 no modification to the breech plug. TC Encore .45 barrel I have in classifieds never misfired with just under 100 rounds before I decided to sell. Normal BP maintenance was taken with these plugs and no problems whatsoever. I had a hangfire at the range with the Lehigh plug at the range once in my 54-120. I blame it on not letting the barrel cool down while shooting on a hot day. I see you like Knight and that is fine. They were not first to make a BP 100% reliable in my eyes. We all have opinions and you know what opinions are like............

GM54-120,
I forgot my .45 Omega plug had been opened to .035 by the previous owner. I have a new plug ready to go in it unmodified.

Omega45 ,

I love the T/C Triumph Muzzleloader. I cannot think of one thing to say bad about it. I have owned Encores, Pro-Hunters, and used an Endeavor a few times. The Triumph right out of the box is a much better ML then the Encore, Endeavor etc.

My testing has been done in different zip codes and temps. In very cold temps the Triumph failed. I can tell you it probably had 15 shots on it by then. But it has been tested with BH209 for atleast 400 shots.

Like builder459 says, you do certain things you wont have any problems. That's very true, i just dont want to. I want it to be right, right out of the box. And now it is with Knight rifles.

As far as the Triumph, just call western powders and they will tell you all the problems they have. They are good people and will share that information with you.

I used to be able to write the same thing, but that changed not so very long ago. One morning, I experienced a hang fire that was so slight, it was nearly imperceptible. I almost didn't believe it, but it was there. Had someone been sitting alongside, they never would have noticed. Then it happened again a week or 2 later. This is when l left the Triumph uncleaned over night in the truck when the temperature fell to near zero. It was easy to remedy.

An ideal solution to me, was to make the chamber at the mouth some deeper, by using a 5/16" drill/countersink, and enlarge the flame channel with the #21 drill, and tap it to receive a ventliner. This required me to turn the rim of the ventliner down to 5/16", but i am very confident, i will never have a hangfire again.

The Omega plug has never ever never failed to ignite BH, even when it was fired in -17 weather and left uncleaned far too long.

I do proper BP maintenence after every range session. When the new Mountaineers hit the street they will misfire when someone does not do proper cleaning or uses a bullet sabot combo that does fit correctly. I test my guns and I would not hunt with one that had issues. I have talked to Don at Western Powders before so no need to call him again. I and others believe the Omega BP to be excellent for igniting BH209 and if you do not see that way.....Knight all they way :D I just bought a .45 Elite and it arrived today. Its going to be a few weeks before my project is complete and I have alot of faith it will be a shooter. Looks like the previous owner only fired a few rounds out of it but I will give it a thorough workout with both T7 and BH209. I have said what I felt needed to be said about this subject. :wave:

Lol.....Negative is the american way. Good luck with your Elite.

Part of the success of the Omega BP is it's shortness. When a hand release feature is added, it becomes too long to be as reliable.

I'll gladly use a wrench to remove my Omega BP to gain reliability.

i heard BH209 was basically built in a savage ML. Sooooo, wouldnt that be the first muzzle loader BH209 worked flawless in?

Not if you consider the Omega came out first.

Didn't Toby test BH 209 long before it was even called BH 209? He did have an Omega. :)

Tom,
Can you explain a few mods that were done on Knights new BH friendly breech plugs.

You are right MD, but the new plug is even better.:wink:

They built a BP sub in a rifle designed to use smokeless powder?

Makes no sense.

They opened up the flame channel, and are using a .031 flash hole with a lot better material then the old so it will last longer. This stands true for the Mountaineer and the replacement plugs for the Elite and Extreme. The primer holder in the Extreme plug has been enhanced as well to.

I believe in the near future they are also going to up grade the red plastic jacket plugs as well.

To tell you the truth, western powders never had a Savage. I believe the people who made the product tested it with a Savage but not sure??? Maybe it was Toby Bridges????

Toby did test the early powder in his Knight. I never read him shooting a Savage, but who knows?

I stand by my statement that my CVA will do everything a knight or white can do.

I sold my great plains rifle so i could put in for the NM deer season :happy0001:

My Mountain Stalker is up for sale now actually mainly to help me out with buying some new camo clothing.

Knight can send me a rifle for free, i'll give them or any other rifle company a complete and honest review of the rifle and shoot the heck out of it.

CVA also gave me a range rod, but i prefer Tom's range rod as you can see it in most of my videos and pictures LOL.

So................how come you didn't give my breech plug a 'complete and honest review'? As i recall you stood on 2 statements. One was, 'the primer pocket was too deep'. This was and is false. The second was 'it wouldn't thread into your barrel'. This obviously was false, otherwise you couldn't have collected data to make the first false statement. Shame on you!

We've already gone through this. That first plug was jacked up and everyone who saw the pic knew the threads were not right at all. It would thread tightly and roughly into my accura's barrel. No plug should ever be like that.


And even though it was horrible to screw into the barrel, i still shot it to test it out.



Adjusting your head spacing correctly of course fixes the mess. The added length you do is always a good idea as its well know that cva leaves looser clearances to allow for longer primers like the W209.
See how much that firing pin bushing is backed out? Theres no telling how much adjustment a persons rifle needs without actually having it there to take measurements and get the perfect fit.

Im sure next you will say they will compete with a smokeless ML too in EVERY WAY. Keep telling yourself that because that is the only person you are convincing. ;)

I guess if you could tolerate some recoil with heavy 460gr+ conicals you might find out......someday. :happy0157::happy0157:

If you can believe RW

The Savage came out 4-6 years before BH209 BTW. Savage offered a "BP only" version the same year BH209 came out IIRC too. They were the first to have BH209 in the load data also. Just pull up the MLII-BP pdf file on the Savage website. Ive never seen it listed in any other companies load data but i haven't seen all of them.

Why in a Savage?...because BH209 is basically a smokeless powder and no other ML barrel was tested to over 100k psi. Every Savage barrel is test fired and tested so it makes perfect sense for safety reasons.

It still confuses me. Why test it in a barrel that's stronger than what the majority will be using?

Savage offered a BP "only" version the same year BH209 was released. ;) Its actually the same gun with a longer barrel but still the same quality as the smokeless barrel. The breach plug design probably had something to do with it too. The same year Savage changed their BP design a little bit for easier removal.