Buying my first ML
 

I have never owned or even shot a ML but for some reason I agreed to join a friend on a SE Kansas whitetail deer ML hunt this coming Sept.

So, now I need to go buy a ML to make this happen.

1) Does price gauge what is a good ML? doubt it

2) Should you select a middle of the road model to learn to shoot?

3) Is accuracy similar in most models?

4) Does it matter if its a break barrel or a bolt action model


I have been looking at a couple models; CVA Accura V2 or the TC Encore ProHunter XT

Was going to get the CVA and then I recently read about the QRBP problems while using Blackhorn powder.

I like the looks of the TC but it seems expensive as a first ML rifle.

Any comments, suggestions, or ideas for a beginner?

problem with BH209 in the Accura plug is soon to be solved. They have new plugs coming out for them.

Its pretty simple to fix without buying a new plug though, takes around 2 minutes to do the work.

I have the V2 Accura and its a heck of a shooter, trigger is very light and crisp.

I do like the way the CVA Accura V2 felt when I was holding it. It is definitely I lot less money also.

I just wanted to hear a few opinions on both MLs and not make it all about costs but more so about true happiness of ownership now and into the future.

i would suggest going to a few gun shops and throw as many to your shoulder as you can find,and check the triggers too.....karl

I see no breaking news on CVA's website about a new breech plug for BH209. Hmmmmmmm

Last I heard was Western Powders designed a new V2 plug and CVA said its not the plug its the powder and wanted nothing to do with it. Appears MAX Muzzleloading, Russel Lynch, is buying a Traditions to play with due to CVA's inability to take responsibility for there breech plug design. It's very easy to figure out by reading his blog he is dissatisfied with CVA's action to make their plug BH209 compliant.

Can you post a link to the new breech plug CVA is going too. I have already seen Western Powders plug for the V2 not CVA's.

http://www.maxmuzzleloaderblog.com/

I have read his blog and I have to agree. My thoughts are its not the ML itself that I am discouraged with, it is the lack of response from CVA. The inability or lack of professionalism from CVA to address this issue and/or at least test the fixed breech plug that was provided to them would have went a long way with me.

I still like the Accura V2, just not CVAs approach to the issue.

The advice karl gave you to shoulder different rifles is very good. It is hard to shoot a rifle that doesn't fit. I think most rifles are capable of very good accuracy these days. Might want to see if there are any regulations in Kansas that might influence what rifle you can use.

I would go to a bass pro, cabelas etc and shoulder some rifles from various M/L companys, before i made any kind of decision on what to buy. CVA's, optima, accura and wolf. T/C encore/ pro hunter, omega, and triumph. as far as breech plugs and BH209 are concerned ,T/C products mentioned won't need any mods with proper cleaning and primers. CVa's breech plugs will need some mods for certain. IMHO traditions isn't in the picture yet...as far as knight rifles, if you like bolts or need a rifle that is open breech and require the use of #11 caps, there the ticket..handle all of them prior to buying and do some reviews. then make a decision. in the right hands with the right bullet and sabot combos, there all capable of excellent shot grouping.. Ray

must not have read Max' newest post about CVA giving in and going to have the new plugs made. Either way, it doesnt take a rocket scientist to make the plug work 100% of the time. Actually you can make them BETTER than any other plug on the market when you do the work yourself or have someone do it for you.

MAX Muzzleloader Accuracy Xperts
The ball is rolling on the new breech plug that will have CVA rifles up and running full steam and on the very top of their game. Thanks for all your input and support. I will post some of the emails I've received over the past few days on my blog very soon. Thanks to Blackhorn for their hard work and to CVA as well for listening.

Before I decide what rifle to purchase... check the laws of the state you want to hunt, pertaining to muzzleloaders. Make sure they have no requirements like exposed breech, scopes, etc. Then after you're sure what rifle you can and can not use, pick the rifle that fits you and your budget. Make is a .50 caliber. And a 1-28 twist if an inline.

The Accura, Pro Hunter, Triumph, etc and some of the other top of the line rifles are going to work fine. But if this is a one time hunt, or even a one time here and maybe a one time there... Cabela's has a Tradition's Timber Ridge .50 caliber blue/black that will shoot just fine out to 100 yards for most people. And it costs $89.00. Just find the load it likes, and that is not too hard. I see no reason to spend hundreds of dollars for something that will not be used. Unless your made of money. This rifle is all you would need. Then if you like the sport, pick a better rifle and have the Timber Ridge as a back up or loaner rifle.

Then again, you might like the sport and really get into it. Also I know everyone likes inlines it seems. Personally if I knew that GMB was around and made barrels for my Renegade, I probably would only own a couple White inline rifles and the rest would be traditional rifles. Don't over look the traditional rifle. It will really make hunting interesting and a challenge.

I have a ProHunter so I am bias. To me my PH is worth every cent I have spent on her and has been all I hoped for and more.

When one spends his hard earned dollars one should expect a gun that goes bang. One should not have to modify a breech plug to get ignition with BH209. CVA knew of problems with the Accura V1 plug and did nothing. They however made a QRBP off its design which did nothing to help ignition with BH209.

I spend my money now on products that are proven and reliable.

Actually they made there QRBP to compete with the original designer of this type of B P, which happens to be T/C. who happens to make BP'S that work well with BH209 when maintained properly.:lolabove: Ray

You hit the nail on the head. It was a poorly designed copy job.

LonRainJer,
I just recently got into the BP scene (two years ago) and bought a CVA Accura Ver. 1. That was the best thing I could have done. It is stainless steel, black stock, shoots wonderfully, kills deer like there is no tomorrow, has shot well with both 777 and Pyrodex, shoots various bullets well and it only cost $240!! There is nothing finicky about this gun. Its so dependable and a pleasure to shoot. I have so much confidence with this gun!!!! I have found that in the BP world you do not always get what you pay for. Good luck!!!

Yes sir it was, and you hit the nail on the head when you mentioned the fact that they didn't get it right as far as Bh209 is concerned. not only that, but i can remove and replace the BP in my Triumph 2- 2 1/2 in the same amount of time it takes to remove the CVA version..how do i know this? i helped a rookie M/L out and he owned a new wolf with a QRBP.. the wolf rifle functioned great for a low price rifle. the BP i didn't care for at all and neither did the OP when he tried the one on my Triumph. i hope all of the various M/L companys take a close look at the powder market and realize that BH 209 is here to stay! and design there BP'S so they ignite all BP subs with 100% reliability..this includes Knight !! Ray

I have a Triumph in the safe also. It has never misfired with BH209 and the plug comes out as fast as it goes in.

My suggestion is to look for used ones. Seems like around here you can buy used ones for around half what new ones would go for. Just check out the bore since a lot of guys don't keep them as clean as they should and they rust.

Another option is Walmart around here still has ones left on clearance that are decently priced.

If it was me I'd personally look at the T/C Omega with a stainless barrel. I'm just not a big CVA fan as the ones I've handled don't fit me well at all. However, they may fit you perfectly. It's just a personal preference.

LonRainJer

Might read through this thread also... Might give you some other thoughts...

http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/blac...fo-please.html

one shouldnt have to spend $900 on an encore and then spend more money of fixing heavy triggers, weak lock up springs because the factory didnt do it right? :happy0001:

I thank everyone for their input, opinions, and suggestions. Its a great piece of dialogue going on, so please keep it coming.

I'm not saying much here but believe me I am listening and learning from you all.

Stay in your little dream world if you think I spent 900.00 on my latest Pro Hunter build.

LonRainJer

for an starter rifle, best for the money, CVA wolf. you should be able to find an used, with an older style breech plug. only thing I did not like about the wolf was the stock. felt light to me, but I have been shooting sidelocks with hard wood stocks vs Tupperware stocks a lot more lately.

I think I would take a look at a Knight. Great triggers, barrels, breech plugs, shoulders well and very accurate. Just my .02 worth.

Yes, but when you pull that heavy trigger. It fires.:happy0001:

LonRainJer

Just my 2 bits but if you look in the thread I posted I really agree with onetohunt... look hard at a Knight...

Myself, i have 2 Omega, a Triumph, an Accura, and an Accura V2.

The best trigger is on one of them Omega. It is light, crisp, and clean i.e. it is near perfect. The other Omega trigger is stiffer, and has a little creep. The Triumph trigger is stiffer, but breaks real nice. The Accura trigger has gotten lighter with age, and the creep and grittiness it had in the beginning, are nearly gone. The Accura V2 trigger is light enough, but has a little creep, and is some gritty.

The OEM Omega breech plug is the only OEM plug from my rifles, that has never failed to ignite BH in all conditions. Some may be negative regarding this plug because it requires a tool to install and remove. This doesn't affect my opinion of this plug at all, because the tool is a 7/16" socket, which just about anybody has in their pickup.

The OEM Triumph breech plug has been very very very good igniting BH, except for a couple of hiccups. The original breech plug in my Triumph needed to have the o-ring replaced. No big deal, but it is something i never had to do for an Omega plug. I managed to damage the compression rings at the front of this plug whilst cleaning it. Now, i need to use a home made tool to install it into my rifle. It still removes without using a tool. I like this plug because it requires no lube or anti-seize or teflon tape. I don't like this plug, because it requires a special tool to install, whereas the Omega plug, installs with a standard, found anywhere, 7/16" socket.

The OEM Accura breech plug only cost me one deer, when it failed to ignite BH. It has been replaced with a plug i made. The breech plug in this rifle is my favorite, because i made it myself, and it ignites BH as good as the Omega breech plug. Actually, i don't think it is my favorite, simply because it requires me to wrap it with teflon tape, when it is installed. I like this plug because it requires a standard 12mm socket to install and remove. All the bolts etc on my Ford are metric, so i always have a 12mm socket with.

The QRBP in my Accura V2 is a real nice plug, but it isn't OEM. After my experiences with the Accura, i didn't bother to try the OEM V2 plug. I modified it before i tried it the first time. It works perfectly igniting BH, and has been tested down to at least -13 degrees, and perhaps colder. This breech plug makes a near perfect seal with the barrel without the use of grease or teflon tape. This breech plug is not a copy of anything TC has ever made. It is just too bad CVA didn't get it right when they made this plug, however the fix is trivial, and simple. MY fix for this plug has been posted more than once on these forum, and believe me, it works 100% of the time. This plug installs and removes quite readily without tools.

My TC rifles came from the factory with zero or very little excess headspace. My CVA rifles came from the factory with much excess headspace. Manufacturing tolerances seem to be some tighter at the TC factory than they are at the CVA factory.

My CVA rifles are accurate. My TC rifles are accurate enough to have accounted for many deers.

My TC rifles are light, compact, and slim, which makes for a good carry whilst hunting. My CVA rifles are heavier, but can still be packed around whilst hunting. My CVA rifles seem clunky, but i have grown to like their feel.

I need 2 rifles. One for muzzle loader season, which can't be scoped; the other for rifle season, which is scoped. I actually need a third rifle for our son, so he can hunt here during our muzzle loader season. Oops, i need a fourth rifle for the prairie deer season, which will be sighted in with a longer range bullet than i use in the hills. This leaves me with one extra rifle, but i don't want to decide which rifle to part with.

I say try to go handle a Knight or two if you can find one.

Otherwise in the new T/Cs, i like the Dream Season Omega and the Triumphs best.
In the new CVA lineup i would get the cheaper NEW Optima. It felt better to me than the new Accura and cost less. If i was going to spend the money on a new Accura, i would just get an Apex instead. Its only a few bucks more and you can swap barrels.

Then if its not your cup of tea, any of them will get a decent return and not be out much if you sell.

Ron, what was said is CVA created their QRBP after T/C released there version much sooner. wasn't meant to mean there exact copies...since in fact they are not lol ! Ray

Personally i would look hard at the Triumph, yes i own one. if you read reviews on the web, you will discover this is one of the most accurate saboted bullet shooting rifles out of the box on the market.especially if you plan to scope it. excellent trigger, lite weight,BH friendly, extremely clean when shooting.easy to use BP, no blow by.. Knights are also nice rifles.i am just not a bolt action fan on a muzzleloader rifle..and they have some issues to clear up IMHO.. Ray

As builder said... I also have Triumph, Omega, and Knights + a few others. I no longer have any CVA's. But they were the older models.

Of three mention above, I would still rate the Knight DISC Elite/Extreme the better of the three in most situations. For my self the second choice would be very easy. The Omega in real stainless is about as nice and accurate as it gets with a drop bock action. The triumph while it is a great accurate gun would rate in there but i am not sure it would rate above my White or Remington 700ML.

Your rating system could and might be completely different.

A suggestion... If you have some friends or you know of a range or a place that people shoot ML's... I would make a trip and watch what was going on and how it is being done.

Next I would suggest you PM Cayugad and get his introduction to muzzleloading list of suppied and things to do. He has these already in a canned form and drop them right in you mailbox...

Al of us can chime in but it would be somewhat disjointed while his are planned and in sequence...

I could post this picture of my ML box but it would not mean a lot until you have his list....

I figured you might rate the various rifles that way Mike, since you are not a fan of break actions:wave: "alias" in the minority! Ray!

I.M.O you can't get a better gun for the money with a Triumph. I own and love my Prohunter but it is over priced. If you look around a few on here bought Knights for around 300 new within the last week or so.. Just BEWARE one gun could turn into a bad habit.............ANd before you know it you own 5.

I tend to agree with Mike, Sabotloader, also. I have had numerous types of muzzleloaders over the years and although the break actions are a little easier to clean, I much prefer the bolt actions myself. They just seem to be more solid in construction and less slop in them. Again this is my opinion.

Nice complete Dream Season available here with scope.

At that price you should have a good gun and scope with a fair investment. I bet he is open to offers closer to $400
http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/muzz...x40-omega.html

Ive handled the Dream Season and it does balance very nice. The barrel looks really cool IMO.

I have 3 Knights and I just bought a Pro Hunter. I like my Knights. I haven't had a chance to shoot the Pro Hunter yet due to about a foot of snow still back where I shoot, but I can tell you take down and cleaning is much quicker with the Pro Hunter. I personally right now would rank my Pro Hunter above my Knights, but I may be the minority there. They're both excellent quality gun makers and I don't think either one would be a bad choice.

Do you plan on using BH with your MLer? what's wrong with regular Pyrodox Lose Powder or Pellets? both will work just fine with the V2. I have'nt tried BH nor do I ever plan to. I am totally satisfied with using Pyrodox RS Lose Powder and Pyrodox Pellets. My (regular) ACCURA cleans up in minutes using them and the SS Bergara Barrel is accurate as hell.
Have you considered looking for one of the older ACCURA V1's? If you can find one it's one heck of a shooter, I have 3. Im not pushing the ACCURA's just trying to help as you mentioned the V2. And many dont use BH for Powder and have got along just fine without it. And as for the QRBP, I also could care less about having one, I never once had to remove My BP fast, it only takes a few seconds to remove the regular screw in stlye with the wrench provided.
So I guess Im trying to say dont get all caught up with the NEW, the OLD works just as good and will continue to do so for a long time.
Best of Luck to You.
(BP)

True, Break open shot guns are great but break open rifles over time - not much of a fan. I think the Ruger #1 is a great example of the problems that MAY become possible.

But you know really my biggest objection to most of them... is the pull back hammer to shoot. Same reason I went away from my old 30-30 centuries ago. It is just not as smooth, quiet, and timely as a trigger safety.

One year with my Omega, and I love my Omega, it was snowing and sleeting early in the morning (really wet). I was hunting in the timber and brush but them it cleared up and got really cold. I jumped a buck in just below me, pulled the rifle up - tried to pull the hammer back - no go - it was frozen. I blew warm air on it for a few seconds and bingo it started working again, always been a little leary since then. I did after that start lubricating the hammer trigger assembly with the spay graphite that locksmiths use to unfreeze locks.

Lesson learned... that i what life is for...

I hear ya Breechplug. I save a lot of money by not thinking I always have to have the "latest and greatest". There are some very reasonably priced older style guns out there that do the job. Dead is Dead. I think the manufacturers keep coming up with something new not because we need it but only to encourage sales.
Art

Thanks,
I did like the way that model looks, I have a Remington 700 XHR with a similar triangular shaped barrel. Just doing some research and hoping to hold a few guns at the shop asap to make a choice.

Looking at a couple used guns to try to save a dollar
.
Omega Dream season and/or Omega with Laminate thumb hole stock

Again, I thank everyone for their input and advice.