Advice from the "Pros"
 

Have any of you had success with recommendations from guys like Randy Wakeman or Toby Bridges? When I decided to try muzzleloading, I found a website with a ton of info from Randy Wakeman. I have tried all of the products that he has recommended with not so good results. This is not a personal slam against these guys but the best advice has come from this forum. Now let me hear your opinions.

Honestly, this won't go well...

How about if you have specific questions, ask, and let's discuss...I hate seeing where guys bash others and that's where it will head...

I don't know any of those guys personally and I started with muzzleloaders back in the 70s so I was pretty well set in my ways before the internet got started...

I will say, most hunting shows, websites and magazines have gotten to where they are marketing certain products...It doesn't work for a fellow like me who bases his decisions on what he has seen or experienced in the past...

But, I guess these guys need to make a living and this is the way they choose to do so...

I've got muzzleloading magazines from the 70s and 80s with one of these guys standing beside game he took with a patched round ball and yet today he claims they aren't effective...Well, I was also hunting with a patch and ball in the 70s and still do so every year...I continue to put deer in the freezer with a flinter and patched ball...So that's where I stand...

Frankly, I'd rather ask these guys on here and make up my mind what product to try...

I don't want this to turn into a bash fest at all. I am trying to find out if the advice from these guys or others lime them is correct or if they are just pushing product for sponsors. As a new person to this sport, I don't like buying things that won't help if it is not needed. The advice I have received from the people on this forum has worked every time.

Well, there are a lot of products out there and people are paid to push them. That's Capitalism. But when you really think about it, when it comes to muzzleloading you can do most of what needs done with soap and water, olive oil, Crisco, fabric from local stores, etc.

The vast majority of the "experts" are in someone's pockets. Manufacturers require their "experts" to hype their products to the exclusion of like products made by someone else.

Now, i don't care if the "experts" talk their products up, that's their job: However, when they badmouth products that work for me, i just ignore them and all their advice.

I think a lot of these guys have some good advice but you have to learn to separate the bs. I think you can learn more from these forums but you need to separate the bs here too.

When you are new to the sport you don't know these things. I am compensated to promote certain products in the archery industry but I don't connect myself with products that don't work. I have left sponsors for coming out with products that don't work or deliver as promised.

I think I may have worded my original post wrong. I basically want to know if anyone has had success with some of these products recommended by the pros. After reading some articles by Randy Wakeman, I purchased Barnes bullets. Barnes makes a great product and they have great customer service, but they didn't work in my particular gun, which Mr. Wakeman also recommended. The folks at Barnes helped me get the right bullet for my gun. Then I found this sight and found out that each gun is different and was told to try some other products that worked even better. ALL of the advice I have received here has worked.

Falcon and Flounder33

That is what I am looking for. I don't like it when they say bad stuff about competitors products either. When you are new to something, it is almost impossible to separate the BS from fact. If I would have found this site first, I would not be shooting a Pro Hunter. I would more than likely have a Knight LRH. I am trying to get better with the muzzleloaders but it is hard when you don't know anything about them. I am not a gun type of guy. I am an archer and most of what I know about does not apply here. I learn more from the posts here than any other place.

No 2 guns will shoot a like so you basically just have to choose a starting point and test.

i rarely read those 2 writers basically due to them just mentioning the product they're using in 3 lines and then wondering all over the place. Thats why i cant even read outdoor hunting magazines anymore, they wonder all over the place.

Both of the individuals you mention have some very informative information.exactly what products that either has mentioned not worked so well for you? wakeman has some real good testing results on all kinds of various muzzleloader products as does toby. do they personally prefer some over others? of course.. don't you...Wakeman speaks highly of Barnes bullets as do many professionals and non professionals.IMHO they are numero uno in the M/L bullet arena, i also like the gold dot/ deep curl bullets.will either of those 2 gentlemen recommend a CVA? nope, but that's there choice.

The trouble with "experts" are while they might have excellent success with a product, that is no guarantee it will work for you. It is only a starting point.

When someone asks me for a recommendation on a product, or rifle... (and I am no expert and admit this) I will tell them my experiences with that product if I have any. If I have no experience, I might speculate a guess at how the product might work, from what I have read. But I try to point this out.

Also while I hate to say this, I too have wonder if some of these "paid for experts," sponsored by lets call them Company A, are not willing to overlook small flaws in a product. After all, if someone butters your bread, you always be nice to them.

All I can tell you is, I do not bad mouth anyone. I read what they have to say, and take it with a grain of salt. If I have a chance to test the same thing, I like to compare experiences. But if there is a large disagreement with the way the product performed.. I like to point that out. Take what ever anyone says, with a grain of salt. Judge for yourself if something works for you and you will be less disappointed in the long run.

Now.. I have tested products. Some I liked, some I did not. But if I did not, I tried to make that plain. Do I feel guilty for taking free stuff and testing it? Heck no! Who wouldn't want the opportunity to test something for free. But I make it clear to who ever wants me to test it.. it will be a fair judgment and there is not telling which way the recommendation will go.

randy used to review cva's before he got on with savage. Toby shoots traditions now.

I am also new to muzzleloading, and I think Wakeman has some good advice to offer. I have also received great advice here, and of course it is more personalized. As MD just stated, "No 2 guns will shoot a like so you basically just have to choose a starting point and test."

Back to Wakeman, people say he's the poster boy for Savage's MLers (that they no longer make), and that may be true. I have never read articles on HIS site, but have read many articles he's authored on chuckhawks.com, and the products he recommends run the gamut. For a Savage boy, he's pretty big on the Omega. I learned about the SpinJag and their other products from his articles, and they are excellent. I highly doubt SpinJag has Wakeman on their payroll.

I do not agree with him on everything, but that does not mean his advice is not worthy of consideration. I find it helpful to read as much as I can, weigh those opinions that vary as far as the east and west, do my own testing, and draw my own conclusions. Either way, be prepared to spend time and money getting it figured out.

You probably need to edit this statement out of your first post then. "I believe these so called "Pros" are nothing more than product pimps."

They do push products that sponsor them and we would too if we were raising our families on the income we made through them.

I come to these forums to hear what "Joe Average Hunter" has learned through their trial and error and success experiences. I believe I receive unbias information at forums such as this one. I don't blame the professional hunter (that only means they get paid to do it) for pushing their sponsor's products at all. They better if they want to do what they're doing for a living.

I have edited my original post to remove that line. It is hard to explain myself sometimes. Maybe I should not have used names either. I also believe both of these guys have some informative articles and I think they know what they are talking about but they tend to leave out a lot of alternatives to solutions that you would need a place lime this to find.

I too push my sponsors but I am quick to point out a better product for a certain application too. I will also point out to my sponsors where they are failing. I know I have to figure some things out for myself. I have no local go to guy for muzzleloaders and no good place to buy products for them either. I drove 7 hours round trip to get Blackhorn 209. It would be nice if they would do a better job of giving alternatives or write some articles for the new guy, lime myself, that has nobody to help and has to order everything.

MICHAEL, from some of your previous post, i really don't think Barnes or any other bullet is the problem. as LEE and Sabotloader and others here have told you T/C rifles are tight barreled, some more than others.have you ran 50-100 strokes of JB down your bore yet? Sabotloader had your same problem with his triumph and now can shoot Barnes,gold dots,lehighs and other bullets with accuracy. a bullet is nothing if the sabot is to tight or to loose.as far as powders are concerned i have shot pyrodex and 777 and 777 wins hands down.my BH 209 didn't make it here this past weekend with my friend who was supposed to bring it, but by all accounts it is a excellent product also.if you haven't already, i would try 100 strokes of JB and test the rifles again.Wakeman didn't give the triumph very good reviews for balance and a few other things, although accuracy wasn't a issue in his review.i bought it based on real world everyday people reviews of accuracy.dependability, weight and price. Ray!

I have done the JB but have not had a chance to shoot it yet. I have been looking back at what I have done so far and feel that if I had found this site first I would have bought a different rifle for my first. Something that is more user friendly. I go through a similar process with bow tuning. Some are much easier than others and I think guns may be the same. I am not blaming Randy Wakeman or anyone else. I wondered if anyone else felt that the people in the know don't do a very good job letting the new people know what to expect. The way the articles were written I thought I could pick up a Pro Hunter a couple of packs of Barnes bullets and some Blackhorn 209, CCI. Primers and everything would be good to go.

Well you know some people sell stuff for a living, for instance used car sales persons.
If you sort very carefully you can find a bit of useful info. now and then.

I understand what your saying completely. as i mentioned i read all the same things that you did from the pro's, but i went a step further and did real world search on various M/L rifles.and everything i read mentioned T/C and there extremely tight barrels.every new rifle i have ever owned has had JB applied to it including center fire rifles. center fires can be more expensive to find a good load for than any M/L rifle. most of my center fires took experimenting with a minimum of 3 different brands of ammo, before i found the one that shot well, sometimes 4-5 at $ 25-30 bucks a box now!when i received my triumph i made 30 passes with JB bore paste, took it out with 777 powder and .250 TEZ bullets and was punching quarter size groups at 50 yds with open sights.i have shot gold dot,sst .250 also with good accuracy and crushed rib sabots.get out and shoot the rifle and if the JB didn't do the trick, call T/C and send it back. and most of all be patient and do as much homework as you possibly can on anything you purchase.. Ray

I thought I did my homework because of all of the Internet searches. I couldn't find anything in the way of magazines or books other than traditional stuff. I sure am glad that I found this site though.

All this is testament to what a small pond muzzleloading has remained.

Very few "mainstream" magazines publish regular MLer articles mostly because on a year to year basis there's not that many or any new guns out. Here on the internet a new bullet or sabot is fat to chew for a few weeks, in a glossy magazine, it's 500 words.

Having worked in the gun biz, and having products I was responsible for reviewed in print, I can say most writers only write about products they feel have merit. If a product doesn't perform, or is somehow defective, they just don't write about it. The industry, through it's advertising dollars, supports the published writers.

The confusion and consternation in regard to muzzleloading "writers" is largely because they exist on the far fringes of the "established" outdoor press. The publish articles and advertorials on the web "reviewing" products that they have a direct financial interest in, i.e. they are paid or receive a stream of free product to "review".

I could go on about the "B" team and backbench "writers" but, I best stop, before I can't stop :s4:

The web is full of information on any product one can think of. example cabelas,gander mtn,real people with no financial interest a given product will give opinions on whatever thay buy from those sites,including rifles, bullets,powders ETC.then theres the old google search also lol. just type in what you want to know about anything.this is the best M/L site on the web, that i have been able to find. i am sure you will work the bugs out on your M/L rifle.. like i said if not return it to T/C. or maybe ask a forum member to have a look at it.. Ray

What really Defines a Expert? Now Im not bashing the Experts but to me there just out to sell or promote a Product and have a bunch of Manufactures who back them so they can Hunt all the Best Places that the Common guy will never be able to afford.
So we see these (Experts) Take the Biggest Bucks, Mulies, Elk, Bear, ect and believe that if we Buy their Products we'll be able to do the same as they do. But in the end the only one going to take more Big and Better Game are these supposed Experts, not us. We the Consumer of their good support their way of life and make it so much better for them so they can continue to Enjoy the Best Hunting out there that most of Us will never be able to afford.
Even if you have the Money to Book one of them Trophy Hunts do you think YOU, Jo Common Hunter are going to get a Booking during the Peak Rut, HaHa, nope the Experts will though. Them Experts are just sitting back Buying More Property to Hunt, that WE pay for so they can go on TV with there Fancy Show and Sell there Products and make Us envious as we look at the Animals they take. And deep down We the Consumer hopes that if we buy there Products we too can take the Animals they do, it does'nt happen. Sure we get Lucky once in awhileand take a Nice Animal but not as Many as they do because they go to all the Best Places in America to do it, or they already own them.
NO, Im not Jealous, but to me there Not Experts because they have more Money than I do or Hunt the Best Places. If WE could go to one of their Farms to Hunt we'd take them Big Animals too....to me them Experts are only worried about one thing, Our Money, simple as that.
To Me Most of us on here are Experts, so we dont need there Advice, I sure as heck dont. I get more and better advice on here and in my own experiences than any Expert could ever give me. Sorry Experts but most of you make me sick! How many of them Experts on T.V. are here on our Forum??? You got it, None.
There Not Experts, they just have More Money and the Best Places to Hunt so does that make them a Expert....
If I want Advice I'll ask the Common Guy who cares about the Common Guy, I'll ask My Questions on Here and get some of the Best Advice I'd ever find anywhere!
(BP)

Well said breechplug. They are not professional hunters. They get paid to go on guided hunts hunts. IMO professional hunters are people who guide for a living. I know, I used to be a guide in my younger years. The very best are in Africa, especially Zimbabwe.

I have shrunk my list of shows I watch by a bunch. That being said, if I could get a gig like theirs, I would do it. Not jealous, just trying to keep it real.


Paul

Like i said one has to look over all types of information including people like T.B and RW.. example look at what RW has to say about Barnes bullets and then locate sites like cabelas etc, then do a search for comments from common folks, hunting sites etc. IMHO along with a whole lot others, including RW Barnes is the best overall performing M/L bullet on the market. now do i buy into everything RW says, absolutely not! Ray

In 60 years of hunting i've never hunted for a trophy. I'm not impressed by trophy hunters. I'll watch them on TV for entertainment, but i've never wanted to be like them.

I hunt for meat. If my freezer stays full. I consider myself successful.

I don't either, but i value there input on products they use every day and test on a regular basis.. Ray

ive always shot small bucks mainly because i missed the big ones or they got away due to crap bullets but this year i put in for an out of state tag to bag a monster LOL. Meats meat but i'd like a set of antlers to hang on the wall next to my flintlock 4x4 i took some years ago.

I'm sure my opinion is not the popular one, but I say more power to them. If somebody offered me money to go hunting everyday I would gladly be a paid hunter. Does that mean I take everything they say as gold? Nope. I don't buy a lot of it. But most of the "professionals" that are out there didn't get where they are because they have no clue what they're doing. Do they have more money than me? Yup. But then when I look around most people have more money than me. That doesn't mean I should be mad at everyone better off than me. Instead I'll hunt vicariously through their shows and take it for the entertainment that it is.

I have to agree with SuperKirby. If some TV show offered me a premo guided hunt where I stood a chance to bag a real monster wall hanger, I would go in a heart beat. If they did this with the understanding that I had to use brand X rifle, and brand X bullets, and brand X scope.. I would still do it. Free is free and I love free stuff.

I suspect a lot of these TV hunters do exactly that. You ever watch these hunting shows? 30 minutes of show has 15 minutes of them selling products. It is just the way it is, and if you want the free hunts and free gear, you have to play the game. But remember, this is to a lot of them their income. Where as I have a separate income. But if putting food on my table and my kids in college hinged on whether or not I hock their product.. it would be a hard choice.

Where I draw the line is if the product was junk, and they demanded I say great things about it. While I might try and be as nice as I could, I don't think I could sell my soul to them. But again remember, this is not my livelihood. When someone wants me to test a product, I always make sure to remind them, if it is junk, then that's the way I will call it. If the thing works, then I will be more then glad to tell my experiences and why I like it.

I can remember one item I tested and it was garbage. I mean a joke. I ended up giving it to a friend's six year old and told him to play with it. (it was a deer call) Needless to say the manufactures were not happy with me, and never posted my comments about the thing. The guy that did get posted must have had a completely different one then I had, because the one I had posed more of a headache then a help.

There actually is a lot of excellent information one can get from the "experts." Face it, these guys have been shooting and using this stuff for many years. They have gained some knowledge. But it is up to us to decide what is knowledge and what is salesmanship.

The funny thing is, I have learned more stuff from forums like this then any TV show or expert could have ever taught me. Even your mistakes that you post about.. that is a learning tool for me. I take your information and then try it for myself. It is what makes these forums such a great tool. Not only for the experienced shooter, but for the person just getting into the sport.

The problem with shows, is it's not always what it seems. We all know what cameras can do by watching movies.

I'm also an avid fly fisherman, so I also watch fly fishing shows. What they make look like an amazing day on the river might have taken 2 weeks to film. I've also heard they block the stream/river and stock it with large fish.

I've also heard what we see on TV for hunting is on private property with huge stock of animals.

Now, i'm not being sour grapes here. Some of what we see is real, and they're experienced hunters who could hunt me into the ground.

Jim Shockey is a guide, and i'm sure he's one hell of a hunter.


I'm just saying that we need to take the TV shows as entertainment, and don't be too critical, or too amazed.

I agree with both of you. I couldn't try to sell something to people that I know is junk. I'm sure I'm naive but I like to think that most of what I see being pushed on TV isn't junk. Some of it is better than others, some of it I wouldn't use, but I haven't seen much that I really thought was junk and wouldn't at least try once.
I know a lot of the hunting/fishing shows aren't "real." I've read plenty of times about filmed hunts taking several seasons for one half hour show. I read about stalking streams and all that. But it's TV. Thats to be expected. But read about the lives of the people you see on tv and almost all of them got there from hard work and being dedicated to what they love. I applaud them for that.

There is on thing about the "experts" is what you read was most of the time 5-6years old.Muzzleloader's world changed a lot in the last 5 years.
I read all their articles ,some I liked some not.
We have to try on our own and find what work with our guns.
Taureau noir