Ethical deer muzzleloader hunting
 

What is your ethical distance to shoot a deer with a in-line?
Taureau noir

im zero'd out to 200yards and according to the charts my bullet still has over 1000 ft lbs of energy, so id probably shoot out to about 225.

There is no right or wrong answer. Ethics are what each person decides is right. Some people could probably harvest deer at 300 yards with out any issue, others may be limited to under 100 yards. Ability has almost everything to do with effective range, the other part of the equation is equipment. Ethics, to me, is more about doing it by the law, not the range.

Problem with max distance with ML, is they tend to be inconsistent. I see guys sight thier gun in at 100 yards, go home and clean em, (I don't know why) and later wonder why after taking the gun apart, it now hits 2" low and 3" to the left. But in the same breath will say they can take 200 yard shots. Go figure.

200 yard ethical pokes are a rare one. I have killed out to 140 yards. But my confidense of hitting my POI was at least 95% or more. I sight my gun in, and I just swab it out. I take my gun back the next moring and find out the cold bore performance. I have even done this a few times. Most are not willing to find out thier cold one shot bore performance.

147 yards, three inches...

thats the problem with the break actions that are so popular now, they never go back together the same way twice...not all muzzleloaders are inconsistent.

The ethical distance you put on your muzzleloader shots, IMO should be in direct correlation to the caliber of the rifle, the projectile being used, the powder charge, the events you face in the shot, and the proficiency of the shooter.

For instance... we have a few shooters on the forum that practice out to distances of 200+ yards. And I mean they shoot a lot, and hit their targets. I think if you ask them they would be the first one to tell you that while they could make the shot at extreme distances, have faith in the rifle and load, in reality hope they would not have to. While this 200+ might be their ethical distance, they would also tell you that if the wind conditions, topography of the area, even the animal itself presents any distractions to their comfort level, their ethical distance has just shortened and the shot would not be made.

What bothers me is what I call the slob hunter. We all know one. They are the ... oh look a deer out there at 200 yards, and while they lack the skills to make that shot, blast away. They have no ethical distance. I stopped hunting with a person for that very reason. It was either stop hunting with him or stomp him into the ground. The shots he was taking were unethical, and he knew it.

I once made a shot at a whitetail deer at just an obscene distance. Estimated at over 400+ yards. This was done with a center fire rifle. The caliber was made for this (7mm mag). I had been practicing for elk hunting out west and at the request of my future guide had spent countless hours and cartridges practicing out to even 500 yards (but had no intention of shooting that far). Friends and I came upon a herd of doe, we had to fill a doe tag that year, and the deer were in the middle of a huge picked corn field. They all stood in that field looking at us in the woods on the edge of the field. My friends there were all unsure of what to do. I got my rest set up, and settled into the shot. I decided to aim for the head of the deer. Why... if I missed I would miss I figured. Not judging the distance correct, I fired and hit her lower then I thought. It was to the front of the throat under the jaw, broke her neck, severed her jugular vein, I mean she dropped. So after the shot was made, my friends were all back slapping, bragging me up, etc. I felt terrible after taking the shot. I knew I had made an unethical shot. I really had no right to attempt that. Even though I had practiced.

With a muzzleloader I limit my scoped shots to 125 yards. And have decided after this year to limit my open sight shots to 75 yards. That might sound far to close to some of you. But to me, I know without a doubt, I can make the shot at that distance if I have to.

As a long range shooter, and have owned probably 10 ML over the years, none of them, I mean none of them can shoot dead consistent if you unbed them.

I don't care if you unbed a rem700, the POI most likely will be off. Along with the bedding issues, you got the powder issues, like 777 being so hydroscopic and changing pOI over time.

Sorry, I'm not a fan of deriving my ethics from the law. There are plenty of unethical things that can be done within the law, and, conversely, plenty of ethical things that break the law.

I think i would disagree with most of what you have said here. I do not have these problems with the ML I choose to shoot but my self imposed max in the area of 200 yards...

I am sure you would. No big surprise. Met many a person like you. I have put up the challenge to them, lets meet in the morning and you get one shot, only one, from a cold bore at 200 yards to hit within a 4" circle. I have won this bet a few times now. Only lost once. And then he couldn't do it again on the second shot.

Any shooter, especially long range shooters who have bedded guns understand about unbedding a long range rifle. This is the reason many gunsmiths worry about proper torque on action screws. But folks like you think the ML is immune to these effects.

IMO: Taking the shot has much more to do with common sense than ethics. My shots are usually limited to 100 yards. If i have a good rest, good light, good wind conditions and if the animal is in the right position; i will sometimes take a longer shot.

You probably should take in account - experiance level of the shooter - we are not all 'babes' or inexperienced as you might think.

Two reasons why I never take my Knight LRH out of the stock. And the fact that I swore off of T-7 over a year ago. That T-7 is far too inconsistent for me to ever use it agian. Back to good old 3F BP for me. And a heavy conical.

Long distance and ethics IMO do not correlate.

What is a good shot for one person is not a good shot for another when it comes to distance.

I practice alot with my Knight rifles. I feel completely confident to 150 yards with my open sighted Knight MK-85. I feel completely confident to 225 or 250 with my Knight LRH.

But I would only take a shot like this under ideal conditions. When conditions worsen, the distance gets shorter, vastly shorter. And to me a shot at running deer is unethical, regardless of distance. And alot of guys shoot at running deer, but I don't. But I would not call a guy shooting at a running deer at 50 yards unethical, however I would never take that shot. I even avoid a brisk walk shot. Tom.

No doubt, there are a few on here I would not be so eager to place that bet with. Been on here since 1999, and its easy to spot the experienced shooters.

Smart man.

Minute of deer at 200 yards is not 4 inches. Minute of deer at 200 yards is 10". And that takes you back to the old 8" pie plate scenario that so many people adhere to. And personally I see no problem with the minute of pie plate theory. If you can keep all your first cold bore shots in a pie plate at 200 yards then you are more than adequate of taking a deer with every shot. Not sure where 4" comes into play. Unless we are talking about minute of ground hog?? Tom.

The main reason why I like my LRH(other than the fact that it is a Knight) is because of the stock. I have not had the stock bedded yet. But it is mated very well from the factory to the stock. And the stock is on the heavy side(so is the entire rifle). I personally like that extra strength of the stock and how the action is mated to the stock. I would have bedded the action if it was necessary. But so far with shooting to 225 to 250 it has shown no need to be bedded. I am hoping to get my leg better in the near future ad spend a good bit of time at the range with my LRH out to 300 yards this summer. Only time will tell. Buy my 525 grain heavy conical has shown great results so far to 225 or so.

And the Leupold B&C reticle has also worked great. I hope it works to 300, but only a good bit of bench time will answer that question. But I will admit I have been thinking a good bit about buying one of the new Leupold VX-3's with the new CDS reticle. I think that knob would be the berries for an accurate MZ?? Tom.

I don't think shooting at that range was unethical at all, for you. You missed the brain, but consider that, had you been aiming at the lungs, you would have hit the heart/lungs area perfectly. A head shot is a risky shot no matter the range.

wow this thread kinda veered off in a hurry lol, i guess when you say the word "ethics" it brings out the knives. Made me want to go back and clarify my post....i can hit minute of deer at 200 with my prohunter no problem, and it has the energy at 200. Id say it was unethical to shoot a deer at any range you havent practiced to see if you could hit consistently....and also to shoot a deer at any range where your bullet is iffy on killing power (i try to stay above 1000 ft lbs). Like some i also wont shoot at an unwounded running deer unless its pretty close, why....because ive never practiced running shots on a target at 100 or 200 yards....if i ever get a chance and get consistent then it will get added to my quiver.

200yds is pretty easy pickins. A 100 yard shot is even better.

Wow. It looks like I'm a little late to this party - three pages in three hours.

My personal rules - (1) never shoot a deer moving faster than a slow walk, (2) never shoot a deer in the butt, (3) never take a shot that I don't know will hit where I'm aiming (it doesn't always do that, but has always been pretty darn close and I've always felt good about taking the shot).

I believe range is a factor of circumstances (i.e. the gun and load I happen to be using, weather conditions, good solid rest or off-hand, etc.). For me, the range has not yet been over about 125 yards with a muzzle loader and 190 yards with a center fire.

I was referring to spot lighting or something of that nature. You can derive your ethics however you choose. I personally hate the word "ethics" because of the arguments that it causes on these forums. The only thing I am trying to say is, if you can make the shot, and if your weapon has the required energy to do the job, then do it. If you can't do it, don't try it.

In my opinion there are too many people giving advice on something they can't back up with hard data. There are a lot of Military trained snipers that hunt, and I think a sniper may have a bit longer effective range than the average sportsman. So, in my opinion, ethics and effective range are very different subjects.

Ethics should be a four letter word. It means nothing to a lot of people. Some of us shoot the year round and practice out to 250 yds. Some of us never take the gun out of the safe till hunting season is open. I have seen people that could not hit a gallon jug at 25 yds and no amount of practice makes any difference, what is an ethical shot for them? Others that I shoot with can hit a rabbit silhouette at 250 yds as long as there is good light and very little wind.
With few exception most good hunters do not need to shoot over 50 yds.

Well I can't agree with that Lee. That may be the case when hunting in the woods, but doesn't apply in fields or open terrain. I would guess half of the deer I've killed were taken at between 60 and 80 yards, with the remainder pretty evenly divided between "under 60" and "over 80". Certainly, all of those I've killed in the woods, either still hunting or sitting on a climbing stand, were in the "under 60" category.

I know one thing. It would take a lot more nimble person than I to creep within 50 yards of a deer in the three foot high brush and tangle of an open clear-cut pine plantation.

From a good field rest, with up to a 10 mph cross wind, I'm confident to 200 yards. More wind I"ll sneak in closer. In my experience, once you get past 150y, it's all about the wind.

HEAD0001
I do not see how you can do a decent job of cleaning your rifle and your trigger if you do not take them out of the stock. I have seen guns that were never taken out of the stock and there has been a line of rust and corrosion along where the barrel and stock meet and also the trigger.
Art

I take the LRH out of the stock once, maybe twice a year. That is normally before my sighting in for the season.

The fit of my LRH is so tight that nothing gets between the barrel and the stock. You can apply a bit of wax to that fit if you want to keep out the rain. And I actually clean the bore and other parts at the range. I do not even put it back in my case dirty. The barrel on my LRH is not floated. It is tight to the stock. I actually prefer a solid bedded barrel if it is done properly. And it will shoot as well as a floated barrel as long as the wood does not distort. And my LRH is laminated, so I do not think it will distort. My encores shoot better after I solidly bed the entire forearm on the rifle.

I take all my rifles out of the stock once or twice a year(including CF's) for a thorough cleaning. But I do not see a need in taking an MZ out of the stock every time you shoot it. And I do agree with the other fellow that it definitely will change your POI. Especially if you are not careful and set the stock in the same spot, and troque your screws to the same in/lb's of torque.

My MK-85 is as tight to the stock as the Knight LRH is also. But I am not as particular about taking it out of the stock, although I rarely do it. I just make sure I seat it back in the stock the same way and use a FAT wrench to tighten the single screw on the MK-85. I have often thought about putting a touch of bedding in the MK-85 at the lug for the stock screw. But the rifle shoots so well I hate to mess with it. Tom.

Even though I like to shoot year round, I did sight in the Muzzy the day before each gun season (Ohio has 3) for confidence. During the 3 seasons I do not remove the stock. I just oil the barrel. After gun season is over for the year, I then remove everything and clean.

Shooting ground hogs will make a 8" pie plate look like a 747...lol




D

For me an ethical shot is not how far I can hit a deer but how close to it I can get to shoot it.
I can shoot most of the time in the 2" to 2.5" at 200 yards on target but mostly try to get to less than 100 yards before taking that shot.
Taureau noir

The trigger assembly in my Kodiak is not to be removed or taken apart, so I see no need to remove the barrel for cleaning.

Because my rifle may shoot minute of "pieplate" @ 200+ yards from the bench doesn't mean I can do it in actual hunting scenarios. Therefore after practice, mirroring hunting situations, be it prone, sitting etc., I limit myself to repeatable shots in the different positions. So sitting with shooting sticks could be 150yrds, and on one knee with my elbow on the other may only be 75yrds. etc. etc.

Ethical doesn't have to be long range.

I have taken two un-ethical shots and learned not to do it again. I practiced and was hitting 1-2 inch groups no problem at 100yrd. Doe at 25 yrd only thing visiable was the head. Clean miss! Though about it that night and realized I could have hit lower jaw or snout meaning no recovery and slow death for the deer, never again. Other shot was 40 yrd only head neck showing, dropped down and back going for boiler room. Hit in butt, tracked for 3hrs found her in shock and finished her. Never again.

With my scoped Remington 700ml I'm good to 150yards(never tried farther) and with my iron sighted side hammers about 80 yards max. That's my comfort zone with my ml's and I won't try no farther with them. I think ethics has alot to do with trigger control not takeing the first so so shot you get but waiting on a perfect kill shot even if it means passing up a good buck. I have made one unethical/bad shot makes me sick to this day because I rushed it and a deer suffers because of it. I was hunting a strip mine watching a huge field(500+ yards) had my 30-06 with me watching the ridges and caught something move below me in a gully I look a 6 point was standing quraryerd to me at 40 yards I threw the gun up and fired didn't account for it walking and hit it in the guts couldn't never find it lost blood trail so I learned to control my trigger finger so to speak

This very question has been haunting me since this past early november,,when our ML season started here in Va. I had trail cam pics of a big buck coming to our foodplot and i knew that in order for me to get a shot @ him it was going to be 200 yds,,,The area im hunting is a wide open field that the deer enter from neighboring properties. A couple years ago i built a box blind that sits on the ground and from the bench inside the blind i am rock solid. So i start practicing taking shots @ a known 200 yds. and everything is spot on! Long story short,,,the buck enters the field,,,goes straight to the foodplot and starts eating,,,he's totally relaxed and standing broadside @ 196 yds. I get the gun out the window,,,the rest is as solid as i could ever have wanted it to be,,i mean everything is just perfect! At the snap of the trigger the gun recoils straight up in the air,,and as the smoke clears i see the buck walking off straight back to where he came from,,unharmed,,,and im thinkin wtf just happened????? I knew right away that something in the recoil of the gun was WRONG,,,but i had to get to where the buck was to make sure it was a miss. I came home,,disappointed to say the least,,,and i still could'nt figure out what went wrong,,,so i got up the next morning,,went back to the field and looked again,,found nothing so i walked back to the ground blind and as i opened the window i saw something white and after closer inspection it all came to me! When i got into the blind i took my sling off the gun,,,when i put the gun out the window to take the shot at the deer i remember moving the gun a little bit farther out the window so the sling stud was on the outside of the 2x4 it was resting on and @ the shot the gun could not recoil back into my shoulder because the sling stud caught the 2x4 causing it to jump up into the air throwing the shot, The white spot that i was seeing in the window was where the stud ripped a piece of the 2x4 apart,,I immediately knew that even though i thought that i had thought of everything,,,practiced my a$$ off at the range and had perfect conditions,,,i left one small equation out and had taken an unethical shot! And missed the biggest buck of my life,,im glad i missed and didnt wound him as i seen him 2 days later 1/4 mile down the street chasin a doe. (he was even bigger that i thought)

im not going to second guess you b/c you were there and i was not, but i dont see why you say that was an unethical shot. If you have practiced and can hit at that range, and your bullet has the proper amount of killing power at that range....how is it unethical. You just muffed the shot, it probably would have been a miss at a closer range too.....i wouldnt equate a miss with taking a shot you have no business taking. Ones a miss (which we all do) and ones unethical.

I Practice Practice Practice and after that I Practice More. For me I know My Limitations, I know what I can do and what My MLer is capable of. Now shooting Paper vs a Real Animal is totally different. For ranges out to 200yds there's just so much that can go wrong after the shot. Even if the Wind is right and you have a Solid Rest and have taken that same shot a thousand times you just cant know what will happen. Say your setteled on the Animal, He's Brodside Feeding and Relaxed, you Fire, at the Shot He takes a Step and you hit further back that you would have liked. How were you to know the Animal was going to move just as you shot, you could'nt have, now was this a Unethetical Shot? if so then all shots would be considered Unethetical as you cant read the Mind of the Animal or see into the Future.
So all anyone can do is do there Best at the time of the shot, sure in 99% of the cases you'll be on, but you just never know what will happen that 1% of the other time.
I live in Farm Country, I Hunt both the Hardwoods and Open Fields, (Corn, Soybean ect) Sure 'd like to have every Animal within 50yds of My sights but it does'nt always happen that way, so in the Open Fields I may have to settle for a 150yd plus shot or go without taking the Animal I've been Hunting, can I make the Shot, sure if all goes well and that's all we can hope for at any given time. Im sure there's Some Bow Hunters among us and they have had a Deer at 15 yds Brodside Feeding, a Ethical Shot, Yes, after the shot the Deer Jumps the string and you either miss or get a Bad Hit, now was this a Ethical Shot, Yes, but the outcome was'nt what you expected because you could'nt see into the Future.
We All know what our Limitations are and what we should do or should'nt, but even then sometimes things just dont go as planned. So all we can do is our best at what we do and hope the best is good enough.
(BP)

Well said Breechplug.

My Omega is sighted on a clean cold bore.That is how it will be in the woods. My PBR is 175 yds.Only on a standing relaxed deer with no wind will I take the shot at long range. My longest kill was at 163. After checking my zero before the season,my stock does not come off,and the rifle does not come into the house.

Charlie

Well i ain't shot a Tick Toter with a ML past an est. 100 yds. I only shot the Doe cause she was on a logging road broadside to me with my Renegade 54 & maxiball. Most all of my deer are shot less than 75 yds, on my place unless you happen to see one through a hole in the woods will be less than 40 yds. I don't get no long range shots so i don't practice past 75 yds.